Jim, I understand your point about pheromones and species specific behavior. But behavior in humans is complex. I'm more interested, as you know, in general effects.

And Alpha Androstenol exposure, for example, is axiolytic in humans.

And when you expose someone to a substance that is axiolytic, they calm down, they feel good, they are more relaxed and less vigilant. That leads to complex changes in behavior.

True, you won't necessarily get lordosis... at least not in public..heh. But you do increase your chances that someone who feels good being around you will treat you differently (better) than if your presence did not exert any modifying (calming) influence at all. For one thing they will want to be around you, especially if they come to associate feeling good with being around you.

One thing that interests me is the bi or trimodal properties of many of the neurosteroids. If any of these also prove to be pheromones, will they also show this bi or trimodal effect pheromonally?

Again, taking Alpha Androstenol as an example, as a neurosteroid it seems to have antidepressant effects at very low doses. At higher doses it loses its antidepressant effect and becomes axiolytic.

Diane

(11-09-2009 10:25 PM)jvkohl Wrote:  I received a reprint today that links one of the molecules I have worked with to olfactory receptors and to a neuroendocrine pathway linked to behavior. The challenge is for someone else to find this information and use it to support their product claims.

James V. Kohl
http://www.pheromones.com

Well, I'm guessing you are talking about Alpha Androstenol. This molecule has a very low vapor pressure and is the most volatile of the neurosteroids. It is hydrophobic and has a small molecular weight. There are GABA-A receptors in high numbers in the mitral cell dendrites that are superficially located in the olfactory bulb. These are not exactly on the surface but well within the reach of molecules with the right properties. All that was elucidated in 2004 and 2006.

Am I close?

Diane

I haven't seen the literature on androstenol and anxiety or depression. Is this published in the research journals?

James

(11-09-2009 11:01 PM)Diane999 Wrote:  And Alpha Androstenol exposure, for example, is axiolytic in humans.

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(11-09-2009 11:11 PM)Diane999 Wrote:  Well, I'm guessing you are talking about Alpha Androstenol. This molecule has a very low vapor pressure and is the most volatile of the neurosteroids. It is hydrophobic and has a small molecular weight. There are GABA-A receptors in high numbers in the mitral cell dendrites that are superficially located in the olfactory bulb. These are not exactly on the surface but well within the reach of molecules with the right properties. All that was elucidated in 2004 and 2006.

Am I close?
Diane

Yes! But when did discussion of androstenol become split into alpha and beta. I don't recall seeing anything about beta-androstenol in conjunction with pheromonal effects in any species.

James

Quote:Yes! But when did discussion of androstenol become split into alpha and beta. I don't recall seeing anything about beta-androstenol in conjunction with pheromonal effects in any species.

James

Well, that is a good question.

A lot of research on both alpha androstenol and beta androstenol has been done as far as determining their CNS neurosteroid properties. Alpha Androstenol is pretty well understood now to be a positive allosteric modulator of GABA-A R.

And beta androstenol has not shown either positive or negative allosteric changes to GABA-A receptors, at least in the research papers I've read.

But I have a question. Which molecule were they testing was it the one on the left [16, (5α)-ANDROSTEN-3β-OL], or the one on the right [5-ANDROSTEN-3β-OL]?

       

The one on the right, 5-Androsten-3β-ol, looks like it may be a negative modulator of GABA-A r.

Diane

Quote:Thanks for asking for back-up. I continue to be surprised by the number of people who simply accept marketing claims, concoct a product and invent their own marketing claims based on what duped consumers have to say about their concoction. There are so few people interested in any scientific approach to this topic, that Ioften think I am wasting my time putting together the facts--as others have repeatedly done.

I think this is rather rude to say of the members here. No one is guilty of what you stated above. We have been using the products a long time. We are a group of like minded people exploring the effects of pheromones or molecules that act as pheromones do in our daily lives. We do post the scientific studies but we are not just about studies we are about the human reaction. You just keep implying we are all to stupid to and duped to know the difference between a marketing claim and a actual effect. It often makes many of us wonder why we even bother testing, reporting or even have a forum for that matter.

You cant discredit all of a persons research based on the VNO debate nor can you discredit all of the consumers experiences as marketing hype. Whether or not there is a functioning VNO ( I believe not) reactions to molecules like Androstanone are quite real and have been documented by both users and science. We may not be wearing lab coats when we test but we are bright enough to blind test, collect data and recognize patterns. Science is more qualified to discover the whys and hows but the actual user, the experienced person who wears the pheromone or a suspected pheromone and actually go's out and interacts with humans in a uncontrolled environment is far more reliable. Scientists need to get off the "we cant document it so it cant be so" attitude. I think it would do them well to actually take the lab coat off and squirt on some Androstanone and walk out in the world with the rest of us.

Tisha

Errr..... I think he's talking about disreputable pheromone manufacturers, Tisha, not forum members. Manufacturers need to be held to a higher standard.

Diane

Thanks Diane,

Key operative words "...concoct a product and invent their own marketing claims..." may have been missed. That's a lot different that reporting on product use. In any case, it's hard to imagine someone taking offense given my ongoing participation here. Obviously, if I thought I was wasting my time, I wouldn't be here! Dial Magnetic ™ is the latest example of marketing based on the non-functional VNO; and the molecule in question is androstadienone. I've commented several times about this--specifically following my NY Times interview about it and other products last July.



James V. Kohl
http://www.pheromones.com

(11-11-2009 9:19 AM)Diane999 Wrote:  Errr..... I think he's talking about disreputable pheromone manufacturers, Tisha, not forum members. Manufacturers need to be held to a higher standard.

Diane