(05-28-2018 8:18 AM)Macro Wrote:  Compare homicide rates of developed countries with gun control (ie like all of them) to US homicide rates. US is about 5x higher than similarly developed/cultured nations. Why do you think that is? Are Americans just more barbaric and violent, no, they just have a fuck load more guns than the rest of us. It shouldn't be a surprise that less people die when it's harder to kill.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...icide_rate

Australia is the best example of the efficacy of gun control, mass shooting basically stopped after they put in regulations in 90s.

No, mass shootings are far more common in the US than in any western developed nation, see below.

Wait a minute.Do you think USA is comparable to other western countries?What other country is that much multicultural with that much uneven wealth distribution?

When a criminal wants to break into a house, does it target the seemingly protected ones or the less secure?When there is a chance that he will get shot in one house while in the other house he will get no resistance, which one will he attack?Is he fool to play with his life?

Imagine if we could apply free economy in immigration.You want to ban guns?Apply it in some states and move there, while people opposed it will move to gun allowed states.Close borders.Let each suffer the consequences of each decision.It's sad that sensible people have to pay the price of childish policies, while those emotional, irresponsible citizens learn nothing from the mistakes of their time or the history.

It's typical Europeans who are for gun control, but they seldom realize it's very easy to own guns legally in several European nations. Norway and Switzerland for example. Gun crimes are exceptionally low in these 2 countries. The 2 main reasons; people such as myself use guns for hunting and because of a welfare model most people don't feel the need to knock over liquor stores and such.

And then take a look at Sweden. 34 grenade attacks in a year. How could this happen? Because of mass immigration of war criminals, a serious lack of integration in society and a justice system which pampers these criminals. It's been a lot more insanity the last couple of years than that. Seriously guys, look up the current situation in Sweden and you'll quickly realize what will happen if you let liberals and feminists run your country for too long. It's absolutely crazy. The world has much bigger issues than Americans owning guns, but of course the mainstream media will conveniently ignore those. I'm a lot more concerned about what is going on in Europe than USA. Our nations used to be as close to utopia as you could come. Sadly we're very far off presently. There's a direct threat to our security because we've been too peaceful and tolerant while these nutcases wants to do us wrong for no real reason.

Gun crimes in the US has little to do with average Americans legally owning guns. It's about criminals/psychopaths who would get their guns anyway. I'm from Europe and I lived in the US for 3 years. I heard gunshots many times, saw yellow tape in the streets etc. It was always a criminal who tried to rob somebody with an illegal gun or it was gang related crime. If only these gang members could permanently exterminate each other I'd say good riddance. And it's not like it's so much less crime in Europe. There is less gun crime. We used to fight 1 on 1 with bare knuckles back in the day to settle a beef. Rape was nearly non existent. Today our men are being attacked with knives and batons and our women are raped by violent immigrant gangs. Most of us are fed up. Vote conservative. #makeeuropegreatagain

Very well said MacCauley

For example, Santa Fe shooting couldnt be prevented by any gun law.Kid was 17, illegal to possess guns.Sawed off shotgun, illegal.Homemade bombs, illegal.

I dont remember seeing a liberal change his/her/zer mind over this subject and I dont know where all this is coming from.Is it only virtue signaling?Is it just opposing by association (because some conservatives are far right, or because of Trump)?I dont know.

(05-29-2018 8:46 AM)stefdude Wrote:  I dont remember seeing a liberal change his/her/zer mind over this subject and I dont know where all this is coming from.Is it only virtue signaling?Is it just opposing by association (because some conservatives are far right, or because of Trump)?I dont know.

I've seen many liberals get red pilled over time. But you make a good point here. We've all encounter those crazy communists who refuses to listen to reason. I think it's best to do what guys like you, Mark, theLaw and other are doing here. Don't back out from a debate. Always speak the truth. Remain rational and demand the same in return. Cite actual statistics.

For example, Chicago vs. Major cities in Oklahoma. It's a huge difference and it's impossible to sweep the evidence under the rug.

Another example, 100% (not 99%, not 99.9%, but 100%) of all rapes in Oslo in 2015 where the victim and attacker weren't formerly acquainted were committed by immigrants from Middle East of Africa. This is factual and no matter how much leftist nonsense they spew out there's no avoiding the actual facts. People are tired of being called racists and other meaningless words which has nothing to do with anything.

People are waking up. I see more informed people now than I did 3 years ago. I was never really interested in politics until around 4 years ago when I started seeing the negative changes in my environment and the day a close female friend of mine was almost rape by some asshole arab.

Stefdude, I can't argue with the view that the demographic/cultural differences of the US are enough to account for 5 times the homicide rate than that of similarly developed countries (and 25 times the gun murder rate). I think it's totally insane. You guys keep talking about violence in Europe, of course there is! Criminals still get hold of guns. The point is that it's a lot harder to get them, making killing more difficult, and the result is less murder... and the stats prove it out!

No one on this thread has advocated banning guns so far. It isn't black and white. You can own guns legally in most of Europe including England, with a license. What most people argue for is more gun control. 95% of Americans want mandatory background checks, Trump promised to ban bump stocks, which most people agree with. There's progress to be made, achievable middle ground - it's just gun manufacturers and politicians in the way.


@mark-in-dallas, a point of process here. I'm not a sensitive guy, but I've been "warned" for calling voodoo nonsense. If saying "asshole arab" (or say asshole black, or asshole jew) is cool, I'd just like to know, just some clarity on the rules here - not a complaint.

(05-29-2018 5:27 PM)Macro Wrote:  @mark-in-dallas, a point of process here. I'm not a sensitive guy, but I've been "warned" for calling voodoo nonsense. If saying "asshole arab" (or say asshole black, or asshole jew) is cool, I'd just like to know, just some clarity on the rules here - not a complaint.

I can clear this up.

Fact no.1: The guy was an arab
Fact no.2: The guy is an asshole for trying to rape my friend

Put these 2 facts together it makes him an asshole arab.

If you for a second think I'm a racist I can with ease explain to you what real racism looks like. Racism is when people from a certain culture invade your country, demand welfare money while showing no gratitude, refusing to learn our language, refusing to understand our culture, refusing to obey our laws, refusing to follow our norms, calling our women whores for wearing mini skirts, calling our men racists for not hiring their illiterate asses, calling our men fucking potatoes/white boys, identifying with American rap artists saying they're oppressed, demanding mosques are built with tax payers money, demanding we allow them to get their halal animal cruelty meat. I could go on and on.

I too have been an immigrant. When I moved to a foreign country I respected their culture, adapted to their way of living and I peacefully co-existed with the people.

It's not about race. It's about culture. Their culture is not compatible with ours. It's clear for everyone to see.

(05-29-2018 5:27 PM)Macro Wrote:  No one on this thread has advocated banning guns so far. It isn't black and white. You can own guns legally in most of Europe including England, with a license. What most people argue for is more gun control. 95% of Americans want mandatory background checks, Trump promised to ban bump stocks, which most people agree with. There's progress to be made, achievable middle ground - it's just gun manufacturers and politicians in the way.

1. So this is not an argument for banning guns...?

Quote:When guns are illegal its hard for everybody to get hold of them, including criminals. Less criminals with guns means less murders with guns. Simple. Works in every other developed country out there for fuck sake.

Illegal is not banning?......or perhaps you were just "exaggerating" again.

2. "Gun control" is a simple phrase used to describe an incredible complex process that is used to dupe the public into thinking it will solve a problem. Just try outlining the mental-health screenings for a firearm license to see this quagmire in action. Also, look at how many shooters acquire guns illegally to make the argument even more ludicrous.

3. The "bump-stocks' talking point is from people who refuse to do even a tiny amount of research.

Quote:ATF approved–Bump-stock devices do not change the action of the gun; they do not make the gun an automatic weapon. Rather, they allow the gun owner to mimic automatic fire in short bursts with variable consistency. This means the devices are categorized as an accessory rather than a conversion. Because of this, USA Today reports that they are ATF approved.

Other accessories will do the same thing–There are numerous ways a gun owner can make a semiautomatic rifle mimic automatic fire. There are special triggers, cranking devices, and other options, all of which are accessories rather than conversions.

“Bump-Stock” devices are for novelty, not accuracy–Bump-stock devices are not made for accuracy, but for the fun of mimicking automatic fire. Such devices tend to have a universal fit, which means an AR-15’s buffer tube can bobble back and fourth inside the bump-stock while the firearm is being shot. These are not made to be precision instruments but novelties that gun owners can enjoy while out shooting at the range.

Machine guns are legal–Contrary to much of the reporting issued after the Las Vegas attack, actual machine guns are legal in the U.S. Such firearms are extremely expensive–this is because legal machine guns are limited to those made before 1986–but they can certainly be purchased for legal use under federal law. It seems contrary to reality to ban devices that only mimic auto fire in a country where there are hundreds of thousands of privately-owned guns that really are automatic.

https://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/...ump-stock/

4. So it's the gun manufactures and the politicians........not certain individuals providing misinformation based on their irrational fear of firearms?

I don't mean to advocate banning all guns. You can argue against that if you like, I just won't respond to those bits.

I have fuck all knowledge of bump stocks or guns parts in particular, it's irrelevant, I was merely pointing out an agreement between left and right.

Less guns in circulation means less criminals get hold of them. There are smart and reasonable ways of doing it. It works to great effect everywhere else!

Dont accuse me of spreading misinformation. I've not lied or tried to be deceitful at all.

(05-29-2018 6:22 PM)Macro Wrote:  I don't mean to advocate banning all guns. You can argue against that if you like, I just won't respond to those bits.

I have fuck all knowledge of bump stocks or guns parts in particular, it's irrelevant, I was merely pointing out an agreement between left and right.

Less guns in circulation means less criminals get hold of them. There are smart and reasonable ways of doing it. It works to great effect everywhere else!

Dont accuse me of spreading misinformation. I've not lied or tried to be deceitful at all.

1. So you posted it in support of your argument, but now you don't advocate it. How is this not deceitful?

2. Again, you posted about it to support your argument, but when called on it, you claim it's irrelevant. Then why post about it if it's irrelevant?

3. So now your referring to "smart and reasonable" ways to remove guns from circulation, without explaining what those are exactly, or even backing up a single part of that argument.

4. You've certainly provided misinformation, as I've documented in my previous posts. Perhaps being evasive, deception by omission, and obfuscating are more appropriate labels for your behaviour, but what you haven't had is the courage of your convictions. If you post something, then refuse to stand behind it, you can't expect others to take you seriously.

If you want to present an argument, then post it, but don't jump in and out at your convenience when you make a weak point. At least have the integrity to stand behind your posts, instead of trying to squirm out of a failed argument with rhetorical gymnastics.

You dont believe that differences in culture and wealth explaim the differences in homocides?So a black man in Chicago breaks into a house, kills a couple and steals because he found it easy to illegaly buy a gun?Not because of education, cultural and poverty issues?Did you try for a second to think in his shoes before rejecting my argument?Easier (allegedly) access to guns makes people kill more?Thats the factor that explains the violence?

Also I dont get it how can Drumpf be literally Hitler and on the same time its a good idea to take away people's right to defend themselves against a dictator.