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Another Senseless School Shooting
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Saiyanprince
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Post: #41
RE: Another Senseless School Shooting
05-27-2018 8:38 PM

(05-27-2018 8:05 PM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  Gun Control is the answer? Yeah right! Then explain why Chicago, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation also has one of the highest homicide rates?

Is it really that hard to comprehend that criminals do not obey laws and if you take guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens then the only ones left with them would be criminals and cops?

So, you had guns in your cars and an armed cop and nobody got shot, yet you think gun control is the answer?

My sarcasm didnt show thru for once? By gun control I mean guns allowed in gun free zone.
Not literally taking away guns. Every household should have one and there should be open carry in every state. There should not be "gun free zones" thsts just an open invitation for cowards and government manipulation.
(This post was last modified: 05-27-2018 8:41 PM by Saiyanprince.)
05-27-2018 8:38 PM
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Macro
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Post: #42
RE: Another Senseless School Shooting
05-28-2018 5:25 AM

(05-27-2018 8:05 PM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  Gun Control is the answer? Yeah right! Then explain why Chicago, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation also has one of the highest homicide rates?

Is it really that hard to comprehend that criminals do not obey laws and if you take guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens then the only ones left with them would be criminals and cops?

So, you had guns in your cars and an armed cop and nobody got shot, yet you think gun control is the answer?

Mark this is trivial argument - people cross state borders.

When guns are illegal its hard for everybody to get hold of them, including criminals. Less criminals with guns means less murders with guns. Simple. Works in every other developed country out there for fuck sake.

TheManInFedora, take your argument in reverse and you'll realize how silly it sounds - Nukes should be legalized for private ownership based on what your saying. No, good people with guns don't stop bad people with guns, this is real life not some fairy tale.
(This post was last modified: 05-28-2018 5:42 AM by Macro.)
05-28-2018 5:25 AM
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mark-in-dallas
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Post: #43
RE: Another Senseless School Shooting
05-28-2018 7:29 AM

(05-28-2018 5:25 AM)Macro Wrote:  Mark this is trivial argument - people cross state borders.

When guns are illegal its hard for everybody to get hold of them, including criminals. Less criminals with guns means less murders with guns. Simple. Works in every other developed country out there for fuck sake.

TheManInFedora, take your argument in reverse and you'll realize how silly it sounds - Nukes should be legalized for private ownership based on what your saying. No, good people with guns don't stop bad people with guns, this is real life not some fairy tale.

Why am I not surprised that you'd throw out the State lines argument? Simple, because I've heard it over and over, without anyone ever offering a shred of proof that a gun used in a crime was purchased out of State. And, were that to be the case I'm pretty sure that the gun control gurus and media would be all over it, citing example after example of cases where a crime was committed with a gun that was purchased out of State.

As to gun control laws reducing murders, well that doesn't fly either. Yes, murders committed with guns may go down, but murder rates do not, as shown by statistics of homicide rates before and after gun control measures were enacted, shown HERE

If gun control works so well in other countries then explain the mass shooting statistics listed for the U.S. and other countries HERE

As to good people not stopping bad people with guns, I guess you missed this story on Friday: Armed bystanders kill shooter at Oklahoma City restaurant

Sympathy for the Devil only results in victimized angels.
05-28-2018 7:29 AM
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Macro
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Post: #44
RE: Another Senseless School Shooting
05-28-2018 8:18 AM

States lines isn't an argument, it's just a fact. You can take guns across state borders.

Compare homicide rates of developed countries with gun control (ie like all of them) to US homicide rates. US is about 5x higher than similarly developed/cultured nations. Why do you think that is? Are Americans just more barbaric and violent, no, they just have a fuck load more guns than the rest of us. It shouldn't be a surprise that less people die when it's harder to kill.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...icide_rate

Australia is the best example of the efficacy of gun control, mass shooting basically stopped after they put in regulations in 90s.

No, mass shootings are far more common in the US than in any western developed nation, see below.

Bullshit source;
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/crime-pre...ch-center/
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/united...shootings/
I don't care for anecdotal evidence.
(This post was last modified: 05-28-2018 8:20 AM by Macro.)
05-28-2018 8:18 AM
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mark-in-dallas
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Post: #45
RE: Another Senseless School Shooting
05-28-2018 9:06 AM

Yes. you can take guns across State lines, and yes it is an argument because that's one that liberals use to push their gun agenda, but cite no examples of crimes committed with guns purchased out of State. It's easy for law enforcement to find out where a gun was purchased, and if out of state purchases were a driving factor in crimes committed, then why why do we never here about crimes committed with guns that were purchased out of state?

As to comparing homicide rates, I did just that, but apparently you either didn't bother to look or decided that you didn't like the source.

bullshit sources? yes I completely agree that Snopes is a bullshit source.

Sympathy for the Devil only results in victimized angels.
05-28-2018 9:06 AM
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theLaw
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Post: #46
RE: Another Senseless School Shooting
05-28-2018 9:53 AM

(05-28-2018 5:25 AM)Macro Wrote:  When guns are illegal its hard for everybody to get hold of them, including criminals. Less criminals with guns means less murders with guns. Simple. Works in every other developed country out there for fuck sake.

There are a few murders that you left out of this argument:

1. The number of people (on both sides) who will be murdered when you try to take away one of 300 million guns in the US by force.

2. The number of people who would be killed by an attacker each year if they didn't have a firearm to defend themselves (wonder how women would feel about this?).

3. The number of people murdered by the state when it decides to take control by violence, like the situation in England right now. Careful, don't look to closely at the UK, as it will decimate your entire argument.

Honestly, I continue to be stunned by sheep who trust the state.Dodgy

Quote:No, good people with guns don't stop bad people with guns, this is real life not some fairy tale.

So you believe (not think) that there are literally no situations where a criminal with a gun us stopped by a "good guy" with a gun? Perhaps you don't understand the definition of "fairy tale".

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(This post was last modified: 05-28-2018 10:01 AM by theLaw.)
05-28-2018 9:53 AM
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Post: #47
RE: Another Senseless School Shooting
05-28-2018 10:07 AM

I can't respond to 1, I can't argue the logistics of it.
2. This is currently the case in every other Western developed nation. They have significantly lower homicide rates.

3. The number of people killed by the state? How many people are killed in the UK by the state? I think the number is sub 10 over this entire decade. It's in the 1000s for the US. You can look at UK homicide rates, way less than the US. There have been very large numbers of murders in London this year, what does that prove? I live in London, we've had gun control for decades. "decimate my entire argument"

I continue to be stunned by people who think guns are a defence against the state.



No, I was exaggerating there are obviously people who do help situations with guns.
05-28-2018 10:07 AM
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theLaw
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Post: #48
RE: Another Senseless School Shooting
05-28-2018 10:53 AM

(05-28-2018 10:07 AM)Macro Wrote:  I can't respond to 1, I can't argue the logistics of it.
2. This is currently the case in every other Western developed nation. They have significantly lower homicide rates.

3. The number of people killed by the state? How many people are killed in the UK by the state? I think the number is sub 10 over this entire decade. It's in the 1000s for the US. You can look at UK homicide rates, way less than the US. There have been very large numbers of murders in London this year, what does that prove? I live in London, we've had gun control for decades. "decimate my entire argument"

I continue to be stunned by people who think guns are a defence against the state.



No, I was exaggerating there are obviously people who do help situations with guns.

For clarification: I was looking at potentially overall lower homicide rates, as per your argument, hence #2 being part of a whole. Sorry, should have clarified that, so you're correct.

In regards to #3, what your seeing in the UK right now is a sharp increase in homicides due to the lack of people's ability to defend themselves with firearms from others and the state while allowing in an influx of poor individuals from another (more violent) cultures. Take a close look at how the state is treating certain cults (see religions) vs others, and ask yourself how violence doesn't increase significantly moving forward in a city like London without some form of revolt from the citizens in defense. The argument that the anti-gun people like to use is that London, for instance, doesn't have as high a homicide rate as it had in the 1980s (true), but they fail to account for the massive surge in the last couple of years; as if it's just an anomaly. Not to mention the amount of sheer terror that these groups can level on a police force without firearms.

If your goal is less (non-natural) death in general, then removing guns is less than 1%, so it's a useless argument. But this is where the anti-gun guys show their true colors, because when you want to talk about non-gun related deaths, even if they are many times higher, they bail on the debate. Because it's not about saving lives for them, but just "feelings" as they dislike the idea of guns. Once again, emotions over facts. Keep in mind that your argument is based on gun-confiscation by force, which you admittedly can't even logistically engineer in your mind.

Your stats might be off a bit......
Quote:A 2006 Injury Prevention study finds a decline in firearm homicides had already begun in Australia before the buyback. It also finds that the decline in percentage terms did increase post-buyback. The study said "the rate of firearm homicide was reducing by an average of 3% per year, [and] this increased to 7.5% per year after the introduction of gun laws. However, the ratio of trend estimates failed to reach statistical significance (pā€Š=ā€Š0.15) because of the low power inherent in the small numbers involved."

https://reason.com/blog/2018/03/01/media...ed-in-5700

Note: I'm responding as if you're not exaggerating.

Quick note: how guns can be a defense against the state: Imagine that the state has decided to take over a small town, and obviously have the monopoly on violence/force/weapons. As the military is not a face-less machine, but instead a group of fellow-citizens, their family's lives would instantly be in danger from retaliation by those being attacked who might kidnap their families for leverage.

Signatures are forum-cancer.Scout
(This post was last modified: 05-28-2018 10:54 AM by theLaw.)
05-28-2018 10:53 AM
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RussianWolf
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Post: #49
RE: Another Senseless School Shooting
05-28-2018 12:04 PM

We know and have witnessed what the ramifications are for a countries citizens that are disarmed. It's all written in black and white, and Red.

That's the elephant in the room.

It wasn't long ago when during Operation Fast and Furious, that guns were distributed to known Mexican drug cartels, by the US government. That's just one example of the US promoting gun violence.
Not to mention the CIA Iran- Contra project, where the CIA sold crack for a black ops project for funding. Then illegally sold arms to Iran.

The US sells more arms to other countries than any other, then people wonder why there is always war and bloodshed.

But enough of my rant.

Hold onto your beliefs loosely, and hold onto your truths tightly.
05-28-2018 12:04 PM
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stefdude
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Post: #50
RE: Another Senseless School Shooting
05-29-2018 4:50 AM

(05-27-2018 3:53 AM)Macro Wrote:  I love the fact you're all banging on about mental illness and tough childhoods. When do people talk about mental illness after *muslim* terrorist attacks?
The solution is obviously gun control, everything else is just a distraction that helps no one except gun manufacturers and politicians.

What the fuck are you talking about?They are doing it in Allah's name, do we need to call religion extremism a mental disease?That goes without saying, doesn't it?Isn't religion extremism descriptive enough of the motives and the mindset?Please explain because it seems that you repeat what you read with no thinking.

They've done studies you know...60% of the time, it works every time
05-29-2018 4:50 AM
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