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Relationship between stress and efficacy - OpR8R - 05-05-2012 10:01 AM

Hi All,

In my line of work my people and I often find ourselves in close quarters with nervous and tense clients. The effects of stress on the body and the attendant chemical "stew" of cortisol, HGH, epinephrine/norepinephrine, etc., in the bloodstream are well known, but my question is how these phenomena affect the efficacy of a given product. In other words; I'm researching the possibility of employing pheromone products - worn by employees - to engender certain desireable responses in clients, but first I would like to know to what degree, if any, client stress may negatively impact the nature of said response(s). The current data does not really inform the issue so I am looking for experiential data - "humint" I guess - from users who might be able to shed some light on this for me (although I am just as eager to lay my mits on any clinical data as well.)

So, what can you guys tell me about this? Is a stressed-out person liable to react differently to you if you're wearing a pheromone product than, say, a relaxed, "lookin' fer a good time" person in a nightclub? If so, how so? The effects I am interested in are those that promote a calming, "all-is-well," "you're in good hands" kind of feeling. In a word, safety. I want my clients to feel safe and secure in the presence of their consultant. However, I read about adverse reactions due to several factors that can result in aggression from nearby males (the very LAST thing I want to do) and revulsion from females (not as bad, but still awful) and wonder if undue stress in the intended, what?... "recipient" can lead to this as well. (What do you call the person affected by what you're wearing? The mark? The victim? The target? Tango?)

All feedback welcome! Thanx!

~Op


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - mark-in-dallas - 05-05-2012 11:00 AM

The male aggression and female revulsion reactions are generally caused by AndrostEnone, which is or at least was the most used pheromone in male products. It is known as the SEX pheromone, and the reason for potential male aggression is probably due to casuing the wearer to appear as a threat or competitor. In women I believe the reason for potential revulsion is that the wearer can come accross as being too sexually agressivve.

Women can also respond very differently to AndrostEnone exposure, depending on where they are in their menstrual cycle.

In your line of work you should probably lean heavily toward the social pheromones, such as Alpha and Beta Androstenol, DHEAS, Pregnenolone, EST, and maybe the THDOC's. There are others as well, but I believe those are some of the most popular and easiest to find information on.

As to stress impacting intended targets differently, I would say that pheromones could have a lesser or greater impact, but I don't believe stress will actually alter the type of effect.

I would say that stress could be an additional obstacle to overcome, and the more stressed out the individual is the less susceptible they may be to pheromonal influence, but the type of influence a pheropmone exerts is not going to change.

Hope that's helpful.


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - OpR8R - 05-05-2012 12:15 PM

Hey Mark,

Yeah, that was right on the money boss. Exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. And thank you for being comprehensive; few things are as tiresome as a primer that assumes one knows too much. I know nothing.

Now, and please don't interpret this as a challenge - it most certainly is not, I defer entirely to your expertise - but is there any clinical/peer reviewed authority behind your assertion [that impact manitude is generally the sole aspect affected by stress]? Or is your belief experiential (I woud imagine collectively) and the authority anecdotal? Again, anecdotal works for me in an interested community of sufficient size, and this forum satisfies that caveat by a margin. The only reason I ask is that I am curious and would very much like to get my eyes on any studies that may exist.

Also, could someone maybe expand on the menstrual cycle and pheromones? In my industry there has long been an understanding that the frequency of events of at least "incident" level increase or decrease with sexually viable female clients in a cycle synchronous to that client's menstrual cycle. The standing theory is that they give subtle physical cues, but now I wonder. In any case if you, Mark, or anyone else could flesh out the whole pheromones/menstrual cycle thing I'd appreciate it. Smile

Last, are there any really solid, comprehensive primers available anywhere? Seems like most of what I'm finding is product information. Three aspects I'm looking to understand are: chemical, socio/behavioral, pharmacokinetics (if that even applies).

Thanx again Mark for your reply, just dead-on.

~Op


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - mark-in-dallas - 05-05-2012 12:39 PM

There have not been many clinical studies on pheromones, and to be blunt, I trust my own and other phero users observations and experiences far more than any cold clinical studies or scientific peer reviewed material that may one day be produced.

As to agression and revulsion that can be caused by AndrostEnone, let's just say for a minute that a clinical trial was done or material written and peer reviewed by the scientific community, and they came to the conclusion that AndrostEnone had no pheromonal qualities, but your employees wore it and observed otherwise, and reported their female clientelle distancing themselves from those that were supposed to be protecting them, and the male clients acting rebellous?

Who would you believe? We have many male and female members who's anecdotal experiences I place far more faith in than anything scienctific conclussions.

You already know the answer to your next question. Smile The reason your incident levels vary according where the females are in their menstraul cycles are that the closer they are the more fertile they become. Now remember, AndrostEnone is the SEX pheromone and signals male verility. So it's easy to see the conection between the 2.

Whether you believe in evolution or creation, we are still animals and have a deep seated instinctual urge to propagate the species.

It is also a proven fact that pheroones are what cause women to sync menstraul cycles when living in close quarters.

I'm sorry there's no concrete information to be found on our little voodoo science, although if there was, we wouldn't quite have the edge that we do.


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - wiserd - 05-05-2012 1:48 PM

The best compiled primer I've found is dbots listing of single molecules on Hacking the Hive. See the links at the bottom of this page.

http://hackingthehive.com/wiki/main/pheromones/

and especially this page;

http://hackingthehive.com/wiki/main/pheromones/molecules/

Androstenol response in women is cyclical.


Quote:In the middle of their monthly cycle those females exposed to androstenol rather than a control tended to rate their moods as submissive rather than aggressive.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6891608

Alpha androstenol seems to work, in part, via GABAergic receptors. Drugs which block those receptors (coffee) will tend to dull the effects of alpha androstenol.

Similarly, people on anti-anxiety meds are likely to be much more strongly affected, to the point of needing a nap.

As Mark suggested, you're most likely to get adverse hits with androstEnone and androstERone. AndrostAnone, for what it's worth, is an alpha molecule which doesn't seem to get negative hits if you don't overdose. The "pick up artist" types use it to influece the effects of androstEnone, but if your primary goal is avoiding negative hits, it's a great addition. Androstanone is a sort of a 'friendly strength' type of molecule. To avoid negative hits, don't use more than ~4mcg of Androstanone ~.5mcg of Androstenone and 1 or 2 mcg of Androsterone. You CAN wear more, and many people do. But some people will react negatively in certain situations. Outside of that, what Mark said is on the money. The interest generating molecules and social molecules are always pretty safe and hobby-ists tend to have a better feel for what molecules do than the formal literature. (And I've done what I can to wade through the formal literature.)

androstadienone is another molecule covered a lot in the formal lit, btw. It raises cortisol in men and women (reducing physical distance and elevating mood with women and sometimes causing depression and aversion in men.)


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - thundr - 05-05-2012 6:07 PM

(05-05-2012 10:01 AM)OpR8R Wrote:  In my line of work my people and I often find ourselves in close quarters with nervous and tense clients.
I work in medicine and I find myself in those situations as well. I am very careful of what I wear if I wear any at all. I deal with alot of stressed out people on the reg. I usually rock the mone free colognes or occasional social mixes. I tend to leave the blood sugar sex magic mixes at home for the club scene. LOL

(05-05-2012 10:01 AM)OpR8R Wrote:  I'm researching the possibility of employing pheromone products - worn by employees - to engender certain desireable responses in clients,
What you are aiming at is a type of aromatherapy. Mostly defined as the use of aromatic compounds for the purpose of altering a person's mind, mood, cognitive function or health. There are 2 mechanisms thought to bring about effects. One is the direct influence of aromas on the brain, most notably the limbic system through the olfactory system. The other is the direct pharmacological effects of the essential oils (or pheromones) themselves. There is light sporadic clinical research in these fields but the efficacy of aromatherapy remains quite unproven still. Not much is understood here and the FDA is a bit grey on it all because you are attempting to elicit a specific response which could be deemed a form of treatment or prevention.

I'm still a bit fuzzy about the stressed out person reacting to mones thing. Stressed out as in a bitter cougar PMS rant, or stressed out like fight or flight adrenal responses? Stressed out people adversely react to many stimuli whether you wear mones or not. I would definitely think a high Androstenone signature worn around a little kid who has lost his mom would not help the situation but would not make the kid go crazy from it. (I don't think..) At best a friendly social mix may enable better communication. Stressed out people usually act rather irrational and are subject to alot more than pheromones. Here we see that pheromones are just a bit of the sparkle of the star not the star itself.

I had a talk with Chris at Alpha Dream about this awhile back. I asked why don't they pump calming pheromone mixes into hospitals, or develop a "compliance" mone for nurses or teachers. Why don't some social workers uses social mone mixes to enable better communication with clients? (I think this is kinda where you are aiming) We decided that there was alot of grey area concerning the FDA and the basic premise that one is intentionally trying to psychologically alter someone with or without their consent. I would assume that the classification of odorant or cosmetic would be correct when concerning pheromone usage and those that govern them would want some of the action as well.

Hope this helped some, LOL, just my .02 on it


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - mark-in-dallas - 05-05-2012 7:52 PM

(05-05-2012 6:07 PM)thundr Wrote:  We decided that there was alot of grey area concerning the FDA and the basic premise that one is intentionally trying to psychologically alter someone with or without their consent. I would assume that the classification of odorant or cosmetic would be correct when concerning pheromone usage and those that govern them would want some of the action as well.

I think it could go deeper than that. We are using human hormones, or a byproduct of those hormones, and attempting to cause a physiological response.

I know that they are just starting to look at using pheromones as potential treatment options for certain diseases, and if much success is ever achieved in doing so, it could lead to pheromones being reclassified and full on FDA regulation.

I really don't see that happening though, as I don't think that any pheromonal response has near the potency to overcome the chemical imbalaces in the disorders.


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - thundr - 05-06-2012 1:36 AM

(05-05-2012 7:52 PM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  I think it could go deeper than that. We are using human hormones, or a byproduct of those hormones, and attempting to cause a physiological response.
Human or not, in the all-seeing eyes of the feds it still can be considered a treatment option and the FDA will shamelessly slap their classic disclaimer on it


(05-05-2012 7:52 PM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  I know that they are just starting to look at using pheromones as potential treatment options for certain diseases, and if much success is ever achieved in doing so, it could lead to pheromones being reclassified and full on FDA regulation.
I'm an outside of the box thinker and feel modern western medicine is linear crap due to the fear of social and judicial repercussions.
Trust me I'm all for it but sadly it will never come to fruition unless the FDA can figure out a way to make a buck off it.


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - halo0073 - 05-06-2012 9:31 AM

(05-05-2012 7:52 PM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  I think it could go deeper than that. We are using human hormones, or a byproduct of those hormones, and attempting to cause a physiological response.

I know that they are just starting to look at using pheromones as potential treatment options for certain diseases, and if much success is ever achieved in doing so, it could lead to pheromones being reclassified and full on FDA regulation.

I really don't see that happening though, as I don't think that any pheromonal response has near the potency to overcome the chemical imbalaces in the disorders.

Do you know which diseases and disorders they are looking to treat?


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - mark-in-dallas - 05-06-2012 11:13 AM

I believe that I've read Alzheimers, autism and depression are 3 being looked at, and found one far reaching hypothesis that pheromones could be used to control prostate activity in men to reduce the risk of cancer.


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - wiserd - 05-06-2012 11:52 AM

(05-06-2012 11:13 AM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  I believe that I've read Alzheimers, autism and depression are 3 being looked at, and found one far reaching hypothesis that pheromones could be used to control prostate activity in men to reduce the risk of cancer.

Alzheimers makes sense. Destruction of cells in the hilus of the hippocampus responsible for producing GABA endogenously look like a likely cause for the disease.

... prostate activity though? That's surprising. If you find a link to that, please share.


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - OpR8R - 05-06-2012 12:38 PM

(05-05-2012 12:39 PM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  I'm sorry there's no concrete information to be found on our little voodoo science, although if there was, we wouldn't quite have the edge that we do.
Not quite sure how to read this, so I'll cover the bases: If you took offense that was certainly not my intention. I thought I had indicated that anecdotal evidence was fine by me given basic considerations (like a long enuf baseline), my only thought was to find out if there indeed was any clinical data as that could only help. So there is no need to apologize for any dearth of same. There is an old saying, "No plan survives first contact." Every soldier/sailor/warrior/cop/etc. who has ever closed with the enemy knows this at his/her core. That is to say that, no matter what the "experts" say, the instant you engage all predictions/plans go right out the window and, at best, will serve from then on only as a loose guideline. If I'm marching into a vil with intel in-hand generated by the think-tank guys way back in the rear saying that it's clear and sanitized, and I meet a platoon going the other way telling me "No chief, that vil crawls," I'm gonna go with the "anecdotal" from the real-time actors every time. Like I said, got no problem with anecdotal in the right context.

The existence of clinical data says more than just that indicated by the data itself; it suggests to what degree mainstream science either regards or disregards a thing. That in itself can be quite telling. Further, I often find that clinical evidence that happens to corroborate the anecdotes will often illuminate certain aspects of understanding that, while maybe not of any particular interest to most, satisfies my peculiar bent. It has been my experience that most folks don't much care how a thing works, as long as it works. I don't know why and stopped apologizing for it a log time ago, but my make-up demands that I know why/how a thing works, and it will drive me nuts until I do. Conversely, sometimes the way in which clinical data debunks a thing is telling; often it reveals an agenda. Etc., etc.

So, it is not that the collective wisdom and practical experience of the many users of these products is meaningless to me, far from it. That's why I'm here to begin with. But by the same token I'm not gonna eschew any clinical data just cuz it's clinical. I'm just looking for the roundest dataset I can acquire; If you'd given me a bunch of clinical data I would have asked for more anecdotal.

Anyway, thanx for your reply and again, if I offended it was not my intention. Have a great day!


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - OpR8R - 05-06-2012 12:58 PM

(05-05-2012 1:48 PM)wiserd Wrote:  The best compiled primer I've found is dbots listing of single molecules on Hacking the Hive. See the links at the bottom of this page.

http://hackingthehive.com/wiki/main/pheromones/

and especially this page;

http://hackingthehive.com/wiki/main/pheromones/molecules/


Androstenol response in women is cyclical.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6891608
Thanx so much, exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for.


Quote:Similarly, people on anti-anxiety meds are likely to be much more strongly affected, to the point of needing a nap.
Helpful nugget, and one I hadn't thought of. It is often amazing to me the pharmaceutical regimens our clients are prescribed, and anti-depressants and anti-anxiety (benzos particularly) top the list.

Quote:, but if your primary goal is avoiding negative hits, it's a great addition.
My ideal goal, understanding of course that there are no magic bullets, would be to create a safe, secure, "all-is-well" kind of feeling. That feeling we all felt as children when, even though we were in the middle of some crisis, because dear old Dad was on the scene it was a foregone conclusion that everthing was well in hand and that at the end of the day all would be set right again. Because of this we were able to completely disconnect from whatever calamity had befallen us. Storms, blackouts, etc., were fun when we were kids. They only became a pain in the ass once we became adults and had to deal with them ourselves. I want my clients to be able to relax knowing that they're safe and sound as long as their SC is nearby. Again, I understand perfectly that nothing exists that will simply make this happen with a couple pumps of the spray bottle, but this is what I'm aiming for.

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply, I truly appreciate it.

~Op


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - mark-in-dallas - 05-06-2012 1:05 PM

It was David Berliner of Pherin that hypothesized controlling prostate active with pheromones, noting that excessive testosterone is a factor in causing prostate cancer, and that pheromones are capable of regulating testosterone production.

Tisha posted an article on it in the pherotalk studies and abstracts forum a number of years ago. Here's a link to that article, as well as the few others I could find, although none come from authoritive websites.

http://www.pheromonetalk.com/studies-abstracts/sixth-sense-your-schnozzle-may-receiving-24214.html

http://www.fiora.com/stern.htm

http://whyfiles.org/033love/main5.html


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - OpR8R - 05-06-2012 1:25 PM

(05-05-2012 6:07 PM)thundr Wrote:  I'm still a bit fuzzy about the stressed out person reacting to mones thing. Stressed out as in a bitter cougar PMS rant, or stressed out like fight or flight adrenal responses?
Fight-or-fight. Stressed out as in "some crazed fan (or ex, or govt., etc.) is trying to harm/kill me." Our copy reads "Significant and substantiated fear of bodily harm or death" or something like that, don't have it in front of me. At times, I would imagine that it is on par with the level and intensity of a critical ER patient who is alert and responsive and also aware of the gravity of their condition/trauma/whatever. Freaked out and not entirely sure they're gonna live. It is unfortunate, but true, that many of our clients don't come to us when they start getting the "I love you so much that I'm gonna kill and eat you so we can be together forever" letters, but only after said amorous psycho has attacked them in an elevator wearing only the client's concert T-shirt 6 weeks later and their hollywood "for show only" so-called bodyguards have completely dropped the ball. Often (not always) by the time we get them they're damaged and fearful and have had their faith in their protectors completely shattered. For some of them, short of successfully defending them in an all-out attempt on their lives (the LAST thing we want to see happen) there is little hope of convincing them that they are now, finally, in good hands.

So you can see where any measure that we might employ to mitigate their anxiety would be helpful. Though they're not all basket cases, most fall somewhere on the curve or they wouldn't be contracting my firm's services to begin with. One thing that is critical in any threat scenario is that the client listen and comply with their SC instantly and without question. Often this will be the deciding factor as the client is the focal point of any attack and what they're doing and where they are at any given moment is the most relevant aspect of the fight. I want them all, to the greatest degree possible, to feel like their SC is their lifeline, that he knows exactly what to do and that they should trust him implicitly.

Again, I am aware that there are no magic bullets and that my clients represent the far end of the stress curve, so achieving 100% success is a pipe dream. But if there exists some measure by which I can even nudge them a bit I'll be pleased. "Less Freaked-out" is fine, know what I mean?

Hope this is helpful! Thanx for your input!

~Op


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - thundr - 05-06-2012 1:47 PM

QUOTE='wiserd' pid='47936' dateline='1336326724']
Alzheimers makes sense. Destruction of cells in the hilus of the hippocampus responsible for producing GABA endogenously look like a likely cause for the disease. [/QUOTE]

Hippocampal atrophy and neuron loss are indeed found in Alzheimer's disease. Parvalbumin is at the forefront of these studies so far. PV proteins play a role in a ton of physiological processes and 2nd messenger production. It's present in GABAergic interneurons in the nervous system and could prolly explain why Parkinson's and Altzheimers often go hand n hand as they both may be triggered by the similar chemical imbalances that can cause brain lesions and plaque. Some data suggests that paranoia and schizophrenia can possibly be subject of this as well, hence y I just typed all that. LOL Really trying to stay on topic... PV interneurons thought to be a major contributor to brainwave frequencies (gamma). Gamma wave manipulation was another one of my failed entrainment experiments on myself and messed me up for a couple days. But thats another topic. Cest la vie.

Most symptoms of Altz and Park don't hit ya until you're like 60ish so at some point while we are turning into old farts our bodies have a harder time balancing out these ratios. Especially if the individual is environmentally or genetically susceptible to said afflictions. However many similar chemical imbalances that can give rise to mental illnesses (genetic, behavioral, environmental etc) can be manifested at any age. I'm going off topic again I think...

Bottom line is I'm not trying to give a huge lesson in biochem, just tryin to give yall a rough idea of what is up and coming on research and the obstacles that are faced here from someone who is on the frontlines of these endeavors. Decreased PV expression is thought to be a major contributor to schizophrenia as well and this is where it overlaps and that's what I've been working on for a few years now. Perhaps at a later date I will be able to provide a link on any concrete publications I make or find concerning such.

I have been talking with a member of this forum about my theory of flying certain chemicals or possible trandermal applications that may be fermented by bacterial skin colonies. Chemicals like antipsychotic drug haloperidol, or rather a derivative of it, is what I've been focusing on. It may be a bit heavy to fly, if it can fly at all. Best case scenario a medicinal cologne could perhaps be worn for those afflicted with delirium and psychosis without the need for oral ingestion. A steady calming effect could likely be induced by the wearer and/or caregivers around the afflicted to possibly induce better communication in compliance-hindered patients. That's y I responded to this thread.

This is all first stage hypotheses but 2 of my patients have Altzheimers and unfortunately alot of things like FDA regulations, and the slow processes it takes to create legal and valid therapies, bind the hands that are eager to help. So I get to provide hypotheses, experimental ideas, and rogue research in hopes that someday they will stick. Until then, I get to sit back hands tied and watch the slow decline of these friends. Hurts my heart.

(05-06-2012 12:58 PM)OpR8R Wrote:  My ideal goal, understanding of course that there are no magic bullets, would be to create a safe, secure, "all-is-well" kind of feeling.

It seems as if we have quite a bit in common concerning this objective my friend albeit aimed at different targets.


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - OpR8R - 05-06-2012 2:05 PM

(05-05-2012 6:07 PM)thundr Wrote:  The other is the direct pharmacological effects of the essential oils (or pheromones) themselves.

This is fascinating to me. I had (in a previous post somewhere, maybe not here) asked for any data regarding the pharma of pheromones, but only because I wondered if there was any. So then, there is some pharmacological effect? Fascinating.

Quote:It seems as if we have quite a bit in common concerning this objective my friend albeit aimed at different targets.

This being what you mentioned about pumping 'mones into hospitals? Or does your objective lie elsewhere? Hmm. Or even prisons, huh? Maybe even the battlefield; a 'mone munition. Talk about a smart bomb. I guess the applications are probably endless. How have I missed this all this time?


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - wiserd - 05-06-2012 2:16 PM

(05-06-2012 1:25 PM)OpR8R Wrote:  Stressed out as in "some crazed fan (or ex, or govt., etc.) is trying to harm/kill me." Our copy reads "Significant and substantiated fear of bodily harm or death" or something like that, don't have it in front of me. I would imagine that it is on par with the level and intensity of a critical ER patient who is alert and responsive and also aware of the gravity of their condition/trauma/whatever. Freaked out and not sure they're gonna live. It is unfortunate, but true, that most of our clients don't come to us when they start getting the "I love you so much that I'm gonna kill and eat you so we can be together forever" letters, but only after said amorous psycho has attacked them in an elevator 6 weeks later and their hollywood "for show only" so-called bodyguards have completely dropped the ball. By the time we get them they're damaged and fearful and have had their faith in their protectors completely shattered. Short of successfully defending them in an all-out attempt on their lives (the LAST thing we want to see happen) there is little hope of convincing them that they are now, finally, in good hands.

So you can see where any measure that we might employ to mitigate their anxiety would be helpful. One thing that is critical in any threat scenario is that the client listen and comply with their SC instantly and without question. Often this will be the deciding factor as the client is the focal point of any attack and what they're doing and where they are at any given moment is the most relevant aspect of the fight. I want them, to the greatest degree possible, to feel like their SC is their lifeline, that he knows exactly what to do and that they should trust him implicitly.

Hope this is helpful! Thanx for your input!

~Op

The majority of the products out there are geared towards goals other than yours, so I'd suggest making your own mix to get what you want. Alpha Dream's corporativo comes close to what you're suggesting in terms of it's goals as does Androtics a314. But Corporativo seems a bit heavy on the Androstenone which (in my personal opinion) can be problematic for a variety of reasons. Androstenone builds up on people over time, confounding accurate dosage. This molecule is the #1 cause of bad hits and tends to have a bad overdose where the wearer is actively avoided. A314 is way overpriced, it also has Androstenone, Androtics is tight lipped about most ingredients and they've pissed a lot of people off by changing the dosage in their mixes with little warning, among other things.

I'd say that alpha-androsteRone would be the primary molecule that fits your criteria. ( I've never tried beta-Androsterone myself so I won't comment on its usefulness to you.) It's possible your guys may get a little shit testing from the Androsterone at first where people try and see if they match their pheromone signature, but I imagine they can pass that and be fine. This is usually as benign as questions about their background and relevant experience. AndrostAnone is a wonderful molecule suggesting friendly strength, and consistently beautiful in doses below 5mcg. It may require a cover scent as it's said to smell a little like urine. Androstenone in very small amounts ( less than .5 mcg, and this stuff sticks around after other mones have evaporated and can build up) can be social even if larger amounts intimidate and suggest aggression. A little DHEA to indicate a non-threatening nature but not too much or it will make your people seem less dominant. A little bit of Nols can help make the alpha mixes more social as well. Many people choose primarily alpha nols with a little beta nol, but that will have people chatting up a storm. I wonder if a mix heavier on beta nols might serve you better in fostering an environment of trust that's not overly chatty. The general rule is that alpha nols increase the volume of conversation and beta nols increase the depth. Nols are great for creating a bond between people, same as sharing a beer would, but they're distracting in a number of ways.

I'm sure you could get some great reviews from your female clients with stuff like androstadienone or the androstadienols (and much higher chance of romantic attachment), or various interest-generating molecules like androstAnol, Alpha THDOC etc. (And Chris seems to have some great new molecules coming out as well) But getting the client to like your guy, while probably very helpful in terms of customer satisfaction, doesn't explicitly match your stated goals. Androstadienone would definitely help reduce physical space between your guy and your client if the client were female. But you'd need to avoid it like the plague if there were men around. (or at least use it in low doses, like less than 10mcg, and well buffered with Est which elevates mood in men.)

Dbot described Est as tending to get him adopted. According to the formal literature, EST has no impact on women and elevates mood in men. But most people here, myself included, don't agree with that assessment outside of the "mood elevation in men part". EST tends to get others to protect and help the wearer,both men and women, and fosters attachments. A small amount could help with creating a bond and making your guy less threatening.

For what it's worth, you mentioned anti-depressants. Some folks on the forum have mentioned that people on anti-depressants or birth control respond less well to certain mones. Personally, I haven't noticed any difference with anti-depressants. My wife used to be on several anti-depressants and she responded as well on mones as she did off of them.

Regarding formal lit;
There's formal literature on Androstenone, EST and androstadienone, but it tends to be pretty basic. Increases in blood flow to body parts. Odds of buying a chair or using a urinal sprayed with Androstenone. Mood elevation from EST. Smelling androstadienone was shown to increase cortisol in men and women. That's one of the more detailed results I've seen.

Sorry this is overly long. Hope it's useful. If possible, it'd be interesting to hear results. Good luck!


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - OpR8R - 05-06-2012 2:52 PM

(05-06-2012 2:16 PM)wiserd Wrote:  Sorry this is overly long. Hope it's useful. If possible, it'd be interesting to hear results. Good luck!

No, no, no, no, no...this is definitely NOT overly long. Thank you so much for your input, it is EXACTLY what I'm looking for. Please, whenever you feel lke answering any question that I might ask, feel free to drone on and on. Assume I know nothing at all. Better yet, assume I am an idiot. I am soaking up all of this like a sponge and I learned a long time ago to NEVER resent redundant data. Like I told Mark (I think) few things are as tiresome as a primer (or advice) that assumes one knows too much. Thanx again!

~Op


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - thundr - 05-06-2012 3:46 PM

(05-06-2012 2:05 PM)OpR8R Wrote:  This being what you mentioned about pumping 'mones into hospitals? Or does your objective lie elsewhere? Hmm. Or even prisons, huh? Maybe even the battlefield; a 'mone munition. Talk about a smart bomb. I guess the applications are probably endless. How have I missed this all this time?

I have only been learning about the effects of the different human pheromones for a couple weeks. There are many on this forum more knowledgeable than I in this particular field of study. My knowledge and lit of pheromones beforehand was based on insects in biochem/entomology classes. I managed to assimilate as much as I could sponge in this short time yet still the possibilities seem infinite.

Knowledge in any area is power. However with that power comes the responsibility to use it justly. In my opinion the majority of what is out there now, publicly known, most is rather harmless novel sociological experimentation by enthusiasts/hobbyists.

Coupled in synergy with applications from other sciences I can see the possibility of small to moderate positive impacts on society as scientists and chemists dive deeper into the rabbit hole. However, I have also tried to understand how its usage could create a negative impact as well. Even on a one way street I like to look both ways before crossing.

From the jump I have tried to visualize both sides of this pheromone nickel. I've done the same with somewhat related sciences of NLP, PUA, black ops, brain entrainment, hypnosis etc etc. I've tried to take the good from all these and junk the bad. I personally like pushing the balance toward the positive elements while retracting from the negatives. Kinda like how Bruce Lee took many fighting styles and combined them into his own Jeet Kune Do. Pheromone use is just another art. A hammer in the hands of the skilled can build marvelous structures, or the unskilled can smash their thumbs.

So far my experiences with mones have been very positive. I like using pheromones to assist with fun and possibly some form of future medical applications. This forum is choked full of amazingly intelligent members and I have learned a great deal from many of them. I enjoy watching the effects pheromones have on everyday life. I can definitely say the past 2 weeks have been very interesting. However, similar to the physical aspect in martial arts there are some VERY mentally powerful practitioners out there who misuse certain techniques and frankly they scare the shit out of me.

I still question on the reg how far into the rabbit hole I will go. My wallet is over here laughing at me right now. Shut up wallet.


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - thundr - 05-06-2012 4:14 PM

(05-06-2012 2:16 PM)wiserd Wrote:  Sorry this is overly long. Hope it's useful.

Great info. I read that thing twice. Great post man. Repped


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - wiserd - 05-06-2012 4:37 PM

(05-06-2012 1:47 PM)thundr Wrote:  Hippocampal atrophy and neuron loss are indeed found in Alzheimer's disease. Parvalbumin is at the forefront of these studies so far. PV proteins play a role in a ton of physiological processes and 2nd messenger production. It's present in GABAergic interneurons in the nervous system and could prolly explain why Parkinson's and Altzheimers often go hand n hand as they both may be triggered by the similar chemical imbalances that can cause brain lesions and plaque. Some data suggests that paranoia and schizophrenia can possibly be subject of this as well, hence y I just typed all that. LOL Really trying to stay on topic... PV interneurons thought to be a major contributor to brainwave frequencies (gamma). Gamma wave manipulation was another one of my failed entrainment experiments on myself and messed me up for a couple days. But thats another topic. Cest la vie.



That is cutting edge stuff! This is the first time I've heard of Parvalbumin and it's potential role in alzheimers and I try to be an informed amature.

I'll have to check it out. Please post what theories you have.

Incidentally, if you're only concerned about a person treating themselves, why not just use a nasal spray directly and let the stuff be absorbed through the nasal mucosa? Would absorption be too rapid? Is evaporation your way of doing 'controlled release?'

If something evaporates, it will affect a wider audience than just the patient.

Thanks for the rep! Glad the info was useful. Big Grin


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - dbot - 05-06-2012 6:55 PM

Lately I've been researching nootropics pretty heavily, and one of the things that's come up is a common lab dye that has been used to treat malaria and a few other things for a century - methylene blue.

Turns out this stuff substantially affects the progression of alzheimer's and parkinson's, in addition to having some very interesting nootropic affects at very low doses (1-120mcg).

Here's some info:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080818101335.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19433072


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - zerosix85 - 05-06-2012 8:19 PM

My favorite nootropic combo is piracetam and aniracetam. A more expensive supplement regimen that I liked was oxyracetam + pramiracetam. All taken with fish oil.

While they also provide tremendous benefits to people with such neurological conditions...It's been proven to aid normal people also. My focus, memory, and reflexes are much better while on it.

It's not some magic bullet though. It's best utilized when you're trying to cram some learning experience in. Makes it perfect for students of all ages. I think athletes and performance artist will find this useful as it's also great for muscle memory.

Best of all. It's safe for you!


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - thundr - 05-06-2012 11:19 PM

(05-06-2012 4:37 PM)wiserd Wrote:  Please post what theories you have.
Incidentally, if you're only concerned about a person treating themselves, why not just use a nasal spray directly and let the stuff be absorbed through the nasal mucosa? Would absorption be too rapid? Is evaporation your way of doing 'controlled release?'
I have a nasty habit of hijacking ppls threads sometimes so I'll jot some things down in my journal if you would like some more info. I've been looking into Lions Mane Mushroom lately with growing interest. Most notably the LMM compounds erinacines and hericenones (sp? I don't have my work in front of me lol) These chemicals seem to stimulate nerve growth factors. Lo or no NGF proteins are thought to be a cause for nerve degeneration. supercool ability that makes this LLM stuff unique is that the chemicals that stimulate NGF can pass blood brain barrier so it ninjas right to the source (brain). The NGF protein cant make it past the blood brain barrier so u cant stick patients with it and expect any quality resullts. Unless you wanted to stick it directly in the brain but what fun is that? More of a treatment than a cure bc the original degeration cause is still present yet some form of balance may still be achieved. The japanese are sick far ahead of us in this stuff be we are catching them, I think.. LOL like I said I won't hijack homie's thread and we can speak about these hypotheses somewhere else...


(05-06-2012 6:55 PM)dbot Wrote:  Lately I've been researching nootropics pretty heavily, and one of the things that's come up is a common lab dye that has been used to treat malaria and a few other things for a century - methylene blue.
Turns out this stuff substantially affects the progression of alzheimer's and parkinson's, in addition to having some very interesting nootropic affects at very low doses (1-120mcg).
Nice find bro. I had no idea that stuff was still around in research other than blood disorders but crossovers can be often be promising. My curiosity has been peaked, I'd like to know more.


(05-06-2012 8:19 PM)zerosix85 Wrote:  My favorite nootropic combo is piracetam and aniracetam. A more expensive supplement regimen that I liked was oxyracetam + pramiracetam. All taken with fish oil.
Those nootropes are all great supplements. I only take pramiracetam though. I'd take more but $. Ima coconut oil fanatic and I mix 10g in 15 oz melted coco oil. Im horrible at math but my clunky calculations give me about ~30-35 mg per solidified tablespoon in the AM. Pramiracetam is fat soluble and the fatty acids in coco oil dont make it past the sm intestine and slams just about all of it in me. Aniracetam is fat soluble too so taking it with fish oil is a good idea. The other 2 u mention are h2o soluble and you could prolly get better bioavailability with water. I eat about a dozen eggs a day so Im pretty sure Im getting alot of acetylcholine precursors too. LOL


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - wiserd - 05-07-2012 1:11 AM

(05-06-2012 6:55 PM)dbot Wrote:  Lately I've been researching nootropics pretty heavily, and one of the things that's come up is a common lab dye that has been used to treat malaria and a few other things for a century - methylene blue.

Turns out this stuff substantially affects the progression of alzheimer's and parkinson's, in addition to having some very interesting nootropic affects at very low doses (1-120mcg).

Here's some info:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080818101335.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19433072

And if you slip it into someone's drink, it will change the color of their pee. I never actually did this since (though I conteplated it back in college when people tended to steal food from the common fridge) since all the strong dyes used for staining biological tissue (including methylene blue) are toxic, but it looks like they're using an absolutely homeopathic dosage. Interesting.

Also interesting to hear you're looking into nootropics. What are you hoping to find, in particular?


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - dbot - 05-07-2012 11:16 AM

@thundr - Lion's Mane sounds interesting. I've heard about some people taking it but never researched it.

I've got some MB on the way from Amazon now at 1% w/v, which should be 500mcg per drop. I'm going to dilute it down to 1mcg to start; most people say the target range is around 60mcg. Here are a couple discussions with LOTS of great info:
http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/51983-methylene-blue-experiences/
http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23947-methylene-blue-research/

@wiserd - The cool thing is that MB appears to have a very excellent safety profile. Chronic methemoglobinemia is treated with 100-300mg per day over the long term with few problems. At doses higher than this, MB shows a paradoxical pro-oxidant effect, but at lower doses it acts as a powerful antioxidant. It also seems to reboot mitochondrial metabolism, which is the apparent mechanism for its beneficial effects on health and cognition. There are some MAOI effects from MB, but at nootropic doses they're not likely to be terribly significant IMO.

And of course, the goal with nootropics is to supplement this

[Image: HomerBrain.jpg]

with this

[Image: MMMM-Brains-Zombie-Lunch-Bags.jpg]

Sorry, I'll stop hijacking this thread now Big Grin

Although, come to think of it, I wonder if any of the racetams could be used pheromonally...


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - wiserd - 05-12-2012 10:32 AM

Quote:Although, come to think of it, I wonder if any of the racetams could be used pheromonally...

You mean to improve someone's memory to increase the potentiating effect of exposure to mones? Or something else?

That's be interesting, but it'd be very hard to determine it was happening. I don't get a beneficial effect from injested racetams, in any case, (Piracetam was awful, but maybe would go better with a different choline source. Lecithin didn't do it for me. ) so I probably wouldn't be a good subject for self tests.


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - zerosix85 - 05-12-2012 11:01 AM

I used to take the Racetams with Choline but with extensive usage, any supplemental Choline source can be pro-depressive.


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - wiserd - 05-12-2012 11:20 AM

(05-12-2012 11:01 AM)zerosix85 Wrote:  I used to take the Racetams with Choline but with extensive usage, any supplemental Choline source can be pro-depressive.

Hmmm... turns out (From dbot's thread) that MB is a reversible MAOI inhibitor.
I'm torn between "I have one of those already" and "it works well so maybe this is better." Will definitely try. Thanks dbot.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22197611


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - extraballislit - 05-13-2012 1:30 AM

What good be a good nootropic combo for a first time user?

I was thinking piracetam and choline, but some of you seem to be pretty experienced. Any guidance about dosages and cycles would be great.

Alos, I'm curious... Do you think nootropics can somehow alter the self effects of mones?

Thanks.

Talk to you soon.


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - zerosix85 - 05-13-2012 2:16 AM

Ripped from another source but this gives you an idea.

Piracetam (2-oxo-Pyrrolidine Acetamide) - is a derivative of the neurotransmitter GABA (Gamma Amino Butyric Acid). Chemically related to the amino acid Pyroglutamic Acid (Pyrrolidine Carboxylic acid), which occurs in cerebrospinal fluid and plays an important role in cognitive functioning.

Aniracetam - Aniracetam (1-Anisoyl-2-pyrrolidinone) is a fat soluble potent analog of Piracetam. Because it is fat soluble, it's stronger with the same dosage, though has a much shorter period of working. Based on vague research, seems to be the 'ram with the least anxiety-inducing effects at high doses.

Oxiracetam - (4-hydroxy-2-oxo-1-pyrrolidinacetamide) is a water soluble analog of Piracetam

Pramiracetam
- (N-{2-(diisopropylamino)ethyl}-2-oxo-1-pyrrolidine-acetamide) is at least 10 times stronger than the same amount of Piracetam

Piracetam and Oxiracetam are both water soluble meaning that you can drink water with it to absorb it through your body. The con, it takes minimum of 2 weeks to build up in your body to start feeling the effects.

Aniracetam and Pramiracetam are both fat soluble. So you would need fish oil, peanut butter or any kind of foods that are high in fat to increase absorption. These racetams are faster acting and you will notice their effects immediately.

Also if you take racetams, I know people always suggest to take it with a choline source which is fine but if you do, don't over do it. Overextended and overuse of choline can have depressive effects also .


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - wiserd - 05-13-2012 10:47 AM

For what it's worth, piracetam has a VERY different shape than GABA.

piracetam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Piracetam.svg

GABA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gamma-Aminobutters%C3%A4ure_-_gamma-aminobutyric_acid.svg

Thanks for the solubility info, though. I'd been trying aniracetam with water. I'll have to change that.

If I've never gotten a depressive effect from choline, what might that indicate?


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - zerosix85 - 05-13-2012 11:58 AM

Like anything else, too little or too much is bad for you. If you don't get depressed from taking choline then it probably means that your choline intake is sufficient or I can't speak for you. If you wanted to take a Choline supplement then try:

Lechitin
DMAE Bitartrate
Choline Bitartrate
CDP-Choline
Alpha-GPC


RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy - OpR8R - 05-15-2012 5:09 PM

(05-07-2012 11:16 AM)dbot Wrote:  Sorry, I'll stop hijacking this thread now Big Grin

That's cool, I'm just stoked it got you guys talking about something you obviously enjoy! Smile Go for it man, do it up!

~Op