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The Science of Sex
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Bella
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Post: #1
The Science of Sex
08-28-2009 3:07 PM

Excerpts about copulins and other pheromones from the book -

The Science of Sex

Enhancing Sexual Pleasure, Performance, Attraction, and Desire

by Kevin Pezzi, MD

http://www.sexualtips.net/excerpts_pheromones.htm


Bella
08-28-2009 3:07 PM
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Post: #2
RE: The Science of Sex
08-28-2009 3:40 PM

Interesting, Bella, looks like he took a lot of the info in the excerpt from Erox.

The Androstenone Discussion
08-28-2009 3:40 PM
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Post: #3
RE: The Science of Sex
08-28-2009 8:42 PM

(08-28-2009 3:40 PM)renny Wrote:  Interesting, Bella, looks like he took a lot of the info in the excerpt from Erox.

Unfortunately, this means he got it wrong (as they did). Pezzi writes:

"The organ responsible for pheromone detection is the vomeronasal organ (VNO), which is bilaterally located on the floor of the nose. The VNO was once thought to be vestigial, but several independent researchers demonstrated that it is functional..."

There is no functional human VNO. I've already cited the literature in this regard:
http://senseofsmell.org/papers/Human_Phe...-15-09.pdf


James V. Kohl
http://www.pheromones.com
08-28-2009 8:42 PM
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Tisha
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Post: #4
RE: The Science of Sex
08-28-2009 10:01 PM

(08-28-2009 3:07 PM)Bella Wrote:  Excerpts about copulins and other pheromones from the book -

The Science of Sex

Enhancing Sexual Pleasure, Performance, Attraction, and Desire

by Kevin Pezzi, MD

http://www.sexualtips.net/excerpts_pheromones.htm


Bella

Good book Bella, despite the VNO debate. I agree the VNO is nonfunctional but that doesn't mean we dont have other olfactory pathways. The pathway may be off but the result is the same. It be nice if they would study human response and pathways more then animals. Mammals do have similarities but our brains function much differently. We know how it doesn't get there but not much about how its does get there.

Despite not knowing, Nature always finds a way Smile
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2009 10:09 PM by Tisha.)
08-28-2009 10:01 PM
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Post: #5
RE: The Science of Sex
08-29-2009 1:05 AM

****************************************​*****

(08-28-2009 3:40 PM)renny Wrote:  Interesting, Bella, looks like he took a lot of the info in the excerpt from Erox.

(08-28-2009 8:42 PM)jvkohl Wrote:  Unfortunately, this means he got it wrong (as they did). Pezzi writes:

"The organ responsible for pheromone detection is the vomeronasal organ (VNO), which is bilaterally located on the floor of the nose. The VNO was once thought to be vestigial, but several independent researchers demonstrated that it is functional..."

There is no functional human VNO. I've already cited the literature in this regard:
http://senseofsmell.org/papers/Human_Phe...-15-09.pdf

This is what Pezzi/they believe. Whether or not you/I agree with his/their views, they are entitled to them. Just as you are free to cite whatever literature you'd like, James. Pezzi clearly stated that others may believe differently in the rest of his quote...

", providing a true sixth sense. Some scientists dispute whether humans actually have a VNO, yet humans undoubtedly respond to pheromones. So what detects the pheromones? The answer to this mystery may be provided by neuroscientist Larry Katz and his colleagues from Duke University who discovered that pheromones trigger a response from the main olfactory system in mice. This suggests that humans may detect pheromones through their regular sense of smell. "

(08-28-2009 10:01 PM)Tisha Wrote:  Good book Bella, despite the VNO debate. I agree the VNO is nonfunctional but that doesn't mean we dont have other olfactory pathways. The pathway may be off but the result is the same. It be nice if they would study human response and pathways more then animals. Mammals do have similarities but our brains function much differently. We know how it doesn't get there but not much about how its does get there.

Despite not knowing, Nature always finds a way Smile

Thanks, Tisha. I personally think Pezzi has worthwhile information to share in his book, despite the controversy about the VNO. So, I chose to share it. Smile


Bella
08-29-2009 1:05 AM
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Post: #6
RE: The Science of Sex
08-29-2009 7:04 PM

People, like Pezzi, who have no background in olfactory research continue to misinform others. A disclaimer after-the-fact does little to reverse what now seems to have become a never-ending stream of misinformation, which is rarely challenged, because most researchers don't care what others believe; they just cite the scientific facts:

http://senseofsmell.org/papers/Human_Phe...-15-09.pdf
see page #11 of the online paper: "With the exception of studies from the above commercial groups [Erox/Pherin], all experimental evidence accumulated by several labs has demonstrated that the adult human VNO is nonfunctional (74, 75)."

Linking the wrong pathway from human pheromones to our behavior hinders research attempts to detail the right pathway. And if the right pathway is not detailed, how can we expect anyone to actually find human pheromones? This is of no concern to people like Pezzi who will quickly move on to the next money-making book topic, after expressing his "opinion".

With reports of the human VNO came research attempts to find pheromone receptors similar to those found in other mammals. When they couldn't be found, another round of research publications attested to the "fact" that human pheromones can't exist. So, why are we here?

Minimally, I hope this "Research Forum" will be used to present more scientific facts than opinions. Research is not about what an author "believes," it's about what can be substantiated by data.

James V. Kohl
http://www.pheromones.com


(08-29-2009 1:05 AM)Bella Wrote:  This is what Pezzi/they believe. Whether or not you/I agree with his/their views, they are entitled to them. Just as you are free to cite whatever literature you'd like, James. Pezzi clearly stated that others may believe differently in the rest of his quote...
08-29-2009 7:04 PM
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Post: #7
RE: The Science of Sex
08-30-2009 9:24 AM

Quote:Minimally, I hope this "Research Forum" will be used to present more scientific facts than opinions. Research is not about what an author "believes," it's about what can be substantiated by data.


You can not substantiate anything scientifically until you first have a belief, a opinion or a theory on it. Theory in itself comes from opinion. Keep in mind your scientifically beyond where the average reader is in this subject.

The Nobel prize winning physicist Richard Feynman said in The pleasure of finding things out.............

Quote:Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the proceeding generation . . .As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.

I am in no way implying your ignorant so dont take it that way. I am saying the very joy of science is the discovery. Believing that....Hey maybe that's wrong and exploring all the data not just the data one scientist deems correct.


That being said ..........

We are not a scientific research forum and never claimed to be. This section states ...........

Quote:Forum to discuss pheromone research, clinical trials, article's and scientific studies in a professional manner.

When people "discuss" things you get "opinions" and beliefs. Its unavoidable. We are not true scientists here but most of us have a love for science. Everyone can have a scientific mind. We can research others findings, studies and should research both sides of it and come to are own conclusions. That's what we encourage in this section. The joy of exploration.

Unfortunately we do not have access to many of the studies you do. I am sure you subscribe to many publications but the rest of us dont and cant.

I know you and many of the peers whose research you post about have contributed a huge amount of time and knowledge to the science of pheromones. That really gos without saying. But the researchers who came before you and made mistakes made contributions as well. They propelled you toward the "truth" about the VNO and that one truth doesn't mean everything else the researcher has said about pheromones is wrong.

I came to the realization there was no functional VNO a long time ago from my own exploring of the research others posted in forums like this one, including yours. I enjoyed the process of discovering that and learned a lot of other things along the way that I wouldn't have learned if I didn't get to read studies with some incorrect information.

For that reason alone even the articles and studies that may have some misinformation in them are important to include in this forum. My brother is a scientist for a large company. He always told me that science is basically the willingness to find out. He also told me, especially when I asked him the answer to something, that the journey to finding out is just as important as the conclusion. Without taking the journey you never really understand how you got where you are and you have learned nothing. You need to read test and understand and come to that conclusion yourself. Well when it comes to VNO I cant really do that on the same level as you. I dont have the capability or the knowledge to test and neither do many of the members here but I can read the studies both accurate and inaccurate and come to a conclusion of my own. In that process we learn so many other important things, develop our own questions and theories. We find joy and science.

Now sure we can just post studies and articles that do not mention the VNO being functional but in doing so we impede the learning process. It takes that journey and all they can learn from that journey away from the reader.

So while I do understand how you feel when you see studies or articles with misinformation in them but you have to remember that you have already taken the journey to the conclusion that there is no functional VNO.

Perhaps Dr Pezzi has not yet finished that journey but that doesn't discredit your work or any other scientists work or his own. It doesn't discredit the other information he offers in his article either.

Quote:Linking the wrong pathway from human pheromones to our behavior hinders research attempts to detail the right pathway. And if the right pathway is not detailed, how can we expect anyone to actually find human pheromones? This is of no concern to people like Pezzi who will quickly move on to the next money-making book topic, after expressing his "opinion".

In no way does Dr Pezzi statement hinder research. It does state his opinion and makes clear there are some that do not believe the VNO is functional. It does not impede progress it fuels it.

Albert Einstein himself on the subject of science and discovery said.........

Quote:Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge in the field of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.


Quote:It is not the possession of truth, but the success which attends the seeking after it, that enriches the seeker and brings happiness to him.
Max Planck (1858-1947) German physicist. Nobel prize for physics, 1918


Quote:The joy of discovery is certainly the liveliest that the mind of man can ever feel.
Claude Bernard (1813-78) French physiologist.

We are just sharing knowledge here. Yes some of that knowledge we may post may be off from the conclusions you have made. The sense of smell org papers you posted above are a great resource and I do hope you post that link in its own thread in this section. It gives people a full picture of on where they are in research on the VNO.

If you really want to get across to people that there is no functional VNO help them to discover this by posting the studies and articles that prove the theory. You have access to many of those and we dont. I know there is probably some rule that states you cant with certain studies but you probably can post quotes from them.

I hope you kinda understand now where we are coming from and why so many pheromone forums like Pherotalk Pherotrith The pheromone forum and Love scent allow studies that may not meet many scientific standards. Maybe understanding it more will ease the frustration I imagine you feel when you see info on functional VNO's

Tisha
(This post was last modified: 08-30-2009 9:29 AM by Tisha.)
08-30-2009 9:24 AM
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Post: #8
RE: The Science of Sex
08-31-2009 11:37 PM

(08-30-2009 9:24 AM)Tisha Wrote:  We are not a scientific research forum and never claimed to be. This section states ...........

[quote]Forum to discuss pheromone research, clinical trials, article's and scientific studies in a professional manner.[quote]


To me, Pezzi's book is just another form of unprofessional marketing hype. It's not about pheromone research, clinical trials, or scientific studies -- as most people could see by the lack of citations. Thus, it is -- at best -- an opinion piece that influences others' opinions in an unprofessional manner.

For example, when successfully done, people like Pezzi can convince most people that limiting dietary cholesterol will make a difference in your test results. These non-scientists don't seem to know (or care) that you don't need to be "fasting" at the time of your cholesterol test (the fasting is for triglycerides). Do you think that this scientific fact might cause people to wonder about the claims made for non-prescription and prescription products that supposedly lower their cholesterol levels? I do, and I think that positive comments on Pezzi's unscientific book are damaging. To me, it's somewhat the same as advising others that eating a particular breakfast cereal will lower your cholesterol. But, I'm not an M.D./author; I'm a clinical laboratory scientist/author who is familiar with test procedures and standard deviation in the results. I can correctly report very different results, and still be within the controlled limits of test accuracy.

(08-30-2009 9:24 AM)Tisha Wrote:  ... But the researchers who came before you and made mistakes made contributions as well. They propelled you toward the "truth" about the VNO and that one truth doesn't mean everything else the researcher has said about pheromones is wrong.

Pezzi is not a researcher, and is wrong about the VNO even with his after-the-fact caveats, which do not allow anyone else to check on what he is indicating, and don't propel them anywhere.

(08-30-2009 9:24 AM)Tisha Wrote:  I came to the realization there was no functional VNO a long time ago from my own exploring of the research others posted in forums like this one, including yours.

Yet you represent a minority opinion, which is correct--and seem to be advocating that it's okay for others to continue with their misinformation here. This seems incongruous.

(08-30-2009 9:24 AM)Tisha Wrote:  So while I do understand how you feel when you see studies or articles with misinformation in them but you have to remember that you have already taken the journey to the conclusion that there is no functional VNO.

Perhaps Dr Pezzi has not yet finished that journey but that doesn't discredit your work or any other scientists work or his own. It doesn't discredit the other information he offers in his article either.


I didn't indicate that he was discrediting anyone's work; he can't be when he doesn't cite anyone's work. And by not citing anyone's work, he discredits the other information he offers. His information has nothing to do with cited works. Some of it may be verified, some not. How do you know where to go to learn what's what?

(08-30-2009 9:24 AM)Tisha Wrote:  In no way does Dr Pezzi statement hinder research. It does state his opinion and makes clear there are some that do not believe the VNO is functional. It does not impede progress it fuels it.

If he, or anyone else is fueling work, the challenge then would be to find a study of putative human pheromones (e.g., like androstadienone and/or estratatrenol) that is not based on the misinformation about the nonfuncitonal human VNO. If no such studies are found, and Pezzi does nothing to inform others about the facts, how can he not be impeding scientific progress?

(08-30-2009 9:24 AM)Tisha Wrote:  If you really want to get across to people that there is no functional VNO help them to discover this by posting the studies and articles that prove the theory.

I've been doing that for many years. For example, see the Scientific Evidence page at pheromones.com. I gave up on keeping it current about 18 months ago, when it became obvious that the false concept of a functional human VNO was predominantly accepted -- against all of the latest scientific evidence.

(08-30-2009 9:24 AM)Tisha Wrote:  I hope you kinda understand now where we are coming from and why so many pheromone forums like Pherotalk Pherotrith The pheromone forum and Love scent allow studies that may not meet many scientific standards. Maybe understanding it more will ease the frustration I imagine you feel when you see info on functional VNO's

I understand reasons for encouraging and/or discouraging discussion of different concepts/facts. The VNO issue was the reason I was banned from the Love-Scent forum (e.g., for being too argumentative). I hope to hold Pherotruth to a higher standard by attempting to help others distinguish between established scientific facts and unsubstantiated opinions.

James V. Kohl
08-31-2009 11:37 PM
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Post: #9
RE: The Science of Sex
09-01-2009 9:29 AM

Wait, so no citations at all? Or even too few to back up his claims? Did he run his own studies, with a complete methods section so we can replicate? I haven't read his entire article/book(?). I'm a novice when it comes to setting up scientific research studies, but it sounds like this guy needs to go back to school. Citing research was the most heavily emphasized part of the Research Methods course I just finished.

So James, you're saying that no one has conducted a study attempting to disprove the VNO studies? Or is it that everyone ignores them?

Lastly if the author is associated with a commercial supplier of pheromones, I trust that guy as much as the ppl who have conducted studies on the health effects of tabacco while workin for Phillip Morris....

"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma... which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary."
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09-01-2009 9:29 AM
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Post: #10
RE: The Science of Sex
09-01-2009 11:57 PM

No citations and he didn't run any studies in what Bella posted. He's just parroting what's in the literature with no regard for whether it's correct. That he adds a caveat may be enough for some people, but the fact is that he knows nothing about the current findings.

Several studies attest to the fact that there is no functional human VNO, and those are cited in the articles I posted links to. Most of the olfactory researchers I know have ignored the human VNO studies, since they were first reported by a venture capitalist/entrepenuer with his team of "scientists/marketers." And even they [Erox//Pherin/Human Pheromone Sciences] make no current claims about a functional human VNO in their marketing.

That's why people like Pezzi annoy me, they can't even bother to update their knowledge base before publishing what they claim to "know". Others buy into it because they've heard it before, not because they've examined the claims.

James V. Kohl
http://www.pheromones.com

(09-01-2009 9:29 AM)Phya Wrote:  Wait, so no citations at all? Or even too few to back up his claims? Did he run his own studies, with a complete methods section so we can replicate? I haven't read his entire article/book(?). I'm a novice when it comes to setting up scientific research studies, but it sounds like this guy needs to go back to school. Citing research was the most heavily emphasized part of the Research Methods course I just finished.

So James, you're saying that no one has conducted a study attempting to disprove the VNO studies? Or is it that everyone ignores them?

Lastly if the author is associated with a commercial supplier of pheromones, I trust that guy as much as the ppl who have conducted studies on the health effects of tabacco while workin for Phillip Morris....
09-01-2009 11:57 PM
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