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Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
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Fly So Hi
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Post: #21
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 9:20 PM

The whole descriptions sounds great. The part that i'm worried is the needle/tip that gets in contact with the liquid. I mean, the pipette tip MUST be changed after it gets in contact with any liquid. So maybe, after step 7 (return to 0) it should blink a led or something for you to change the tip.

P.S.: Make it return to +1 THEN to 0 to make sure ALL the liquid is expelled.

And yes, the atomiser is the weakest link in the chain. At http://www.sunburstbottle.com where i buy my bottles, they say it's 140mcl per spray for the normal sprayer bottle. It's always best to keep things as precise as possible, but remember that the essential here is the ratios/proportions among all the molecules. So the machine needs to be as precise as it can be.

P.S. 2: Ever saw briefcase PCs? Maybe in the future you could make the machine fit into a briefcase. Portable mixing anywhere you go, wow, haha. Makes me think of conspiracy/special agents movies where everything cool is inside a briefcase!

Sorry, i digress, as always. Blame my ADHD.

Fly
03-12-2012 9:20 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 9:22 PM

(03-12-2012 9:19 PM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  Fly So Hi,

You seem to have a decent amount of experience in this stuff as well. Are you just someone who has played around with it a lot? Or do you do stuff with this in your job or in competitions like I used to?

Oh, i did a technical in Telecomunications some years ago. Messed around with some electronics there and sometimes with my father when i was a child. I'm rusty, but if you need i can help with some simple things.

Fly
03-12-2012 9:22 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 9:45 PM

(03-12-2012 9:22 PM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  Oh, i did a technical in Telecomunications some years ago. Messed around with some electronics there and sometimes with my father when i was a child. I'm rusty, but if you need i can help with some simple things.

Cool! I very well might... I actually have much less expericience with the circuitry and much more with the programming, but because I'm only used to a few microcontrollers, I'd have to learn a new program, but generally speaking that isn't too hard. I've had to do that a few times with absolutely no outside help. One didn't even have a forum or anything when I was trying to learn it, and the help was terrible. Fortunately the guy had programmed the SDK aspect of it (which was otherwise terribly made at that time) such that things were color coded, and it was c-based. I didn't know c, but I had just started a class n java, so I figured it out. Thats probably the hardest time I've had learning a language though, and I expect it always to be. Not that the conditions of learning another one might not be worse, but that was my first experience like that, and it really hardened me for more.

I also got some experience from my father (step-father really), and I could ask him for help, but then I'd have to deal with all the questions as to what its for hahaha.

(03-12-2012 9:20 PM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  The whole descriptions sounds great. The part that i'm worried is the needle/tip that gets in contact with the liquid. I mean, the pipette tip MUST be changed after it gets in contact with any liquid. So maybe, after step 7 (return to 0) it should blink a led or something for you to change the tip.

Must it? That's a little dissapointing, but not killer. But ya, I was thinking it would need some led lights for things anyways, so not a big deal to add another one from the pack. If I use the computer I could also easily add a 'ding' type noise when it finishes.

Why is it that the tips must be changed though, if there is one tip for each molecule? Just so risidual doesn't build up and mess with the measurements?

(03-12-2012 9:20 PM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  P.S.: Make it return to +1 THEN to 0 to make sure ALL the liquid is expelled.

Is this just to let the last bit of liquid settle at the bottom before finishing it? And ya, I was planning on doing so, because I was planning on taking it up to +1 at the beginning for taking up slack, but I suppose if there is an additional reason to stop, then keep going, I could just push it down to +2, then 0, or something like that.

(03-12-2012 9:20 PM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  And yes, the atomiser is the weakest link in the chain. At http://www.sunburstbottle.com where i buy my bottles, they say it's 140mcl per spray for the normal sprayer bottle. It's always best to keep things as precise as possible, but remember that the essential here is the ratios/proportions among all the molecules. So the machine needs to be as precise as it can be.

Very good point sir, +1 interwebz to you! I hadn't thought about it that way. I still will probably focus on the sprayers first though, because my automated sprayer is already setup.

(03-12-2012 9:20 PM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  P.S. 2: Ever saw briefcase PCs? Maybe in the future you could make the machine fit into a briefcase. Portable mixing anywhere you go, wow, haha. Makes me think of conspiracy/special agents movies where everything cool is inside a briefcase!

OH. MY. GOD. YESSSSSS!!!!!!

DAMN YOU! NOW I MUST HAVE ONE!

Actually for practicality purposes, that would be great for going on vacation, there's just the tiny bit about putting a briefcase with a ton of bottles with fluids and electronics through airport security...

But now you really have me thinking... would there be a way to get that through airport security if it wasn't a carry-on? I've only been flying a couple times and never had the issue of taking mones or electronics with me haha.

(03-12-2012 9:20 PM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  Sorry, i digress, as always. Blame my ADHD.

Trust me I understand. Your digressions are much appreciated though, and have been very helpful, so thank you!

EDIT:
I will spread the love and come back to you later! Damn love, always needin spread... hahaha

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(This post was last modified: 03-12-2012 9:56 PM by gentlmentlemen.)
03-12-2012 9:45 PM
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Post: #24
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 10:13 PM

(03-12-2012 9:45 PM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  Why is it that the tips must be changed though, if there is one tip for each molecule? Just so risidual doesn't build up and mess with the measurements?

Precisely. You see, at this thread Chris tell us to use 1/100 part of Alpha-THDOC for this particular mixture. Probably due to it's potency or sedative effects. If you dive a tip into A-THDOC concentrate, then the same tip dives into A-nol concentrate, for example, it would cross-contaminate both the concentrate and the final mix.

(03-12-2012 9:45 PM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  Is this just to let the last bit of liquid settle at the bottom before finishing it? And ya, I was planning on doing so, because I was planning on taking it up to +1 at the beginning for taking up slack, but I suppose if there is an additional reason to stop, then keep going, I could just push it down to +2, then 0, or something like that.

By "go to +1" i meant that the plunger should go into "negative motion" to expel the residual liquid that eventually hangs into the pipette tip. That would be the equivalent of the "push beyond the first stop" you saw on the video at 4:54.

(03-12-2012 9:45 PM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  Trust me I understand. Your digressions are much appreciated though, and have been very helpful, so thank you!

Smile Ah, good!

Hitting the pillows now, talk to you tomorrow.

Fly
03-12-2012 10:13 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 10:36 PM

(03-12-2012 10:13 PM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  Precisely. You see, at this thread Chris tell us to use 1/100 part of Alpha-THDOC for this particular mixture. Probably due to it's potency or sedative effects. If you dive a tip into A-THDOC concentrate, then the same tip dives into A-nol concentrate, for example, it would cross-contaminate both the concentrate and the final mix.

I think you misunderstand what I was planning on doing though. I was planning on having 1 tip per bottle, and only ever using the same tip for that molecule. So the A-nol tips stay with that (and only that) A-nol bottles, the A-THDOC tip stays with that particular A-THDOC bottle, and so on and so forth. I was planning on changing tips anytime the molecule or concentration changed. So this isn't a concern of cross contamination from residual, I'm asking whether the pipette tips work as well or measure as accurate of amounts after multiple uses. I could see small amounts of crystals building up at the tip possibly affecting it... so probably best to change as often as possible anyways. They're cheap though I guess. Would be interesting to see what it would take for it to change its own tips. Right now no practical designs come to mind, but its late.

Also I was planning on changing the bit of rubber-like sealing material (still haven't decided what to use exactly) for that section of the grid anytime the bottle for that slot got changed. I don't see the need to change it more often than that. Part of me is slightly concerned though about drips building up from evaporation on the material. If they did, that could be a HUGE problem for my lid that slides off like a drawer, or any lid that did anything but go vertically. The obvious solution though would be to keep it in the fridge. Besides that, all I can think of right now would be some kind of "drop shield" to slide underneath the sealing lid after lifting the sealing lid, but before sliding it away to intercept any drops falling from the sealing parts of the lids.

(03-12-2012 10:13 PM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  By "go to +1" i meant that the plunger should go into "negative motion" to expel the residual liquid that eventually hangs into the pipette tip. That would be the equivalent of the "push beyond the first stop" you saw on the video at 4:54.

That's what I figured, and I agree. I was planning on using the extra room I would have created for slack in the gears to compensate for the slack in the pipette all in one, and that ought to work. Would just have to make said "slack taking" movement slightly larger.

(03-12-2012 10:13 PM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  
(03-12-2012 9:45 PM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  Trust me I understand. Your digressions are much appreciated though, and have been very helpful, so thank you!

Smile Ah, good!

Hitting the pillows now, talk to you tomorrow.
Haha see ya in the AM! Oh wait it already is! Hahaha

Great discussion. If only we had actually heard back from the vendors on which spray bottles they use...

I suppose I could also do some searching to find out what spray bottles are supposed to be most accurate, regardless of if they are sold by pheromone vendors.

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(This post was last modified: 03-12-2012 10:39 PM by gentlmentlemen.)
03-12-2012 10:36 PM
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Post: #26
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-13-2012 8:14 AM

(03-12-2012 10:36 PM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  ...I'm asking whether the pipette tips work as well or measure as accurate of amounts after multiple uses. I could see small amounts of crystals building up at the tip possibly affecting it... so probably best to change as often as possible anyways. They're cheap though I guess. Would be interesting to see what it would take for it to change its own tips.
...

I'm sure no crystals would build up in the tip of the tip, but they're so cheap that it's just better to use one tip per bottle every time you use the machine.

(03-12-2012 10:36 PM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  Also I was planning on changing the bit of rubber-like sealing material ...
Part of me is slightly concerned though about drips building up from evaporation on the material.
...

I don't really think evaporation could happen and condensate on the bottle cover with just ambient temperature. But if you're willing to spend more electricity/money on the device, you could use a peltier cooler (thermoelectric cooler) to cool down each slot, to make sure the temperature would not cause condensation.

EDIT: I thought you'd keep the bottles in the fridge or something and only place them on the rotary when you need to use them, right? Maybe there's no need for a cover. That way you could keep the Pheroprinter out of the fridge, hehehe.

Fly
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2012 8:17 AM by Fly So Hi.)
03-13-2012 8:14 AM
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Post: #27
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-13-2012 9:50 AM

(03-13-2012 8:14 AM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  I'm sure no crystals would build up in the tip of the tip, but they're so cheap that it's just better to use one tip per bottle every time you use the machine.

Well tbh, after using the same syringe for a long while, I'm pretty sure I can see these little crystals that have accumulated as the small amount of liquid left behind will result in the carrier evaporating and leaving behind the molecule. Maybe its just in my head, but I have used that syringe a lot of times... Also there's the possibility of corosion and erosion on a very small level I suppose, but idk how much of an issue that would be with most molecules.

But like you said, probably better just to change tips. I'm thinking that function could probably be added to the track's motor... but I'll worry about that when I get the earlier functions stated down. That poor track motor already does so much in this design...

Speaking of track motors, I forgot to mention that I would not be using a step motor to keep track of which bottle it is at, but instead a hole along the track at each stop. A button (significantly smaller than the hole) would then ride along the track such that it is depressed until it reaches a bottle. Or vice versa, either way. This sacrifices short term accuracy, but doesn't allow any inaccuracies to build long term, increasing long term accuracy. And with lining up to these bottles, only a certain amount of short term accuracy is really needed, and it isn't near as much as the linear actuator and parts like that. For keeping the linear actuator and the other motor's long term accuracy in check, I could either keep absolute track of which microstep it is on, even once you turn it off after finishing a mix, or I could have a physical stop which they align themselves to at the beginning of every mix. That way even if it occaisonally misses a microstep here or there along the way, it doesn't accumulate those inaccuracies over the course of many, many mixes.

(03-13-2012 8:14 AM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  I don't really think evaporation could happen and condensate on the bottle cover with just ambient temperature. But if you're willing to spend more electricity/money on the device, you could use a peltier cooler (thermoelectric cooler) to cool down each slot, to make sure the temperature would not cause condensation.

EDIT: I thought you'd keep the bottles in the fridge or something and only place them on the rotary when you need to use them, right? Maybe there's no need for a cover. That way you could keep the Pheroprinter out of the fridge, hehehe.

Well, the rotary design is much less space saving, but in a rotary design, yes, you could do that more easily. In the grid, I suppose you coukd as well... But it could be pain to take the caps of 30 to 50 bottles off, set them in, take them out when its done, and put the caps back on again. Part of the reason for this as well is to reduce spillage, and while the machine is intended to be largely stationary, if something (like clumsy old me) bumped it and sloshed the bottles... that could be bad. And if I have to change the bottles all the time, I would think I would have almost as much accidental spillage as if I was just making the mix myself.

I doubt evaporation would be much of a likelihood, but if it is any likelihood at all, then it will be a problem. In general I just want everything to be really robust, so I may add a drip shield or something. I want this thing to still work even if my AC and fridge go out in the middle of the summer. Not that I will normally run into that problem, just trying to think of all the potential problems it could run into. The first design probably wouldn't actually have a drip shield, though I'll probably leave space for it just in case I decide I want to add it.

Hmm... a thermocooler... how much do those cost? If it was really cheap, I might consider that. It would be nice not to have some weird box in the fridge for people to ask about or clog the fridge up in general.

However, I kinda doubt they are cheap. Also that would raise running costs because it would run while idle, but once again idk how much more that would cost. Probably would depend somewhat on how well the whole thing is sealed to keep the cool in... which is a whole added level of design issues that I'd rather not delve into in the first go-round.

Still, the "Spy's Essential PheroMixer" briefcase would probably include one. Hell, if that was just some no-expense-spared thing, you could even add gyros and parts such that it always stays level and can operate even during the most exhilarating of car chase scenes... droolRofl

EDIT:
If I was to put it in the fridge, it would probably only be parts of it. possibly only the grid pf bottles, and then I'd store the rest somewhere else. At the very least it might be important to store the battery outside the fridge, and in general I don't want water condensing on the electronics. So basically the same concept as just placing them on the rotary when operating, yes. Instead I would just be setting the motors on the track above the grid.

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(This post was last modified: 03-13-2012 10:14 AM by gentlmentlemen.)
03-13-2012 9:50 AM
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Post: #28
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-13-2012 10:28 AM

I wonder if the whole "touching the tip of the drop to the wall of the container" thing will be an issue. If the carrier is 100% DPG I could see that being an issue... and just in general for anything with high enough surface tension that will tend to happen...

Perhaps the motor that rotates and raises the mix bottle underneath the pipette could do that somehow, but if that's the case I'll have to increase the accuracy of that significantly, and it still might be difficult. Besides having to then keep track of the mix bottle's liquid's height, I don't know if it would be easy to touch it to the side, the pipette's width would probably get in the way. So a rotating and raising design would probably need to also rotate the pipette or bottle very slightly at the end to touch the drop, but then if you touch it to the same place on the side of the bottle every time, there's a lot more potential for cross-contamination.

Maybe if the mix bottle wasn't rotated and raised, but translated sideways, then raised.

Tbh though that issue might be a big pain to deal with... might be better to use concentrates dissolved in alcohol than in oil... then just add any fixative liquids as the last part. Even alcohol might have small drops though, I know it does with my syringe... and not dealing with the drops left at the tip will likely decrease the accuracy...

OH.... did you also mean that the pipette tips must stay in the liquid of the mix bottle for the entire time it is expelling liquid? Because that might solve it, but you'd definitely need to change the tips after that.

So basically fill it with however much PA and the like it needs, then fill it with the molecules?

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(This post was last modified: 03-13-2012 10:35 AM by gentlmentlemen.)
03-13-2012 10:28 AM
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Fly So Hi
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Post: #29
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-13-2012 11:15 AM

(03-13-2012 9:50 AM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  ... but I'll worry about that when I get the earlier functions stated down...

Hehe, yes, we're planning too much in advance here.


(03-13-2012 9:50 AM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  I would not be using a step motor to keep track of which bottle it is at, but instead a hole along the track at each stop. A button (significantly smaller than the hole) would then ride along the track such that it is depressed until it reaches a bottle. Or vice versa, either way
...
That way even if it occaisonally misses a microstep here or there along the way, it doesn't accumulate those inaccuracies over the course of many, many mixes.

True, but you could implement a reset XY position for that in the code. Your system sounds great actually, use whichever is more simple. We can always upgrade the machine on future versions. Let's remember that the focus/goal here is to make a working machine. We can make it work with tridium later, but for now, let's make it work.

(03-13-2012 9:50 AM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  ...
But it could be pain to take the caps of 30 to 50 bottles off, set them in, take them out when its done, and put the caps back on again.
...
The first design probably wouldn't actually have a drip shield, though I'll probably leave space for it just in case I decide I want to add it.

I'll draw you my idea for this when i get home.


(03-13-2012 9:50 AM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  Hmm... a thermocooler... how much do those cost? If it was really cheap, I might consider that. It would be nice not to have some weird box in the fridge for people to ask about or clog the fridge up in general.

All ranges of prices. Abut US$ 6,00 for this:
http://www.amazon.com/Velleman-6A-PELTIE...grid_i_0_2


(03-13-2012 9:50 AM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  Still, the "Spy's Essential PheroMixer" briefcase would probably include one. Hell, if that was just some no-expense-spared thing, you could even add gyros and parts such that it always stays level and can operate even during the most exhilarating of car chase scenes... droolRofl

Haha, no accelerometers or gyroscopes for now. Let's keep it simple for the average Joe to be able to replicate it.

Fly
03-13-2012 11:15 AM
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Fly So Hi
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Post: #30
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-13-2012 11:52 AM

(03-13-2012 10:28 AM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  I wonder if the whole "touching the tip of the drop to the wall of the container" thing will be an issue. If the carrier is 100% DPG I could see that being an issue... and just in general for anything with high enough surface tension that will tend to happen...

Let's assume all is alcohol for now. We worry about DPG later.


(03-13-2012 10:28 AM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  Besides having to then keep track of the mix bottle's liquid's height, I don't know if it would be easy to touch it to the side, the pipette's width would probably get in the way.

We could use a cone-shaped container like you said yourself. That way, the tip would almost touch the bottom of the cone without touching the walls.


(03-13-2012 10:28 AM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  Maybe if the mix bottle wasn't rotated and raised, but translated sideways, then raised.

Sounds even better than the rotating thing!


(03-13-2012 10:28 AM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  OH.... did you also mean that the pipette tips must stay in the liquid of the mix bottle for the entire time it is expelling liquid? Because that might solve it, but you'd definitely need to change the tips after that.

Actually, that was shown on the video, but not emphasised. I honestly think that's not a must.


(03-13-2012 10:28 AM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  So basically fill it with however much PA and the like it needs, then fill it with the molecules?

Yes, that's how i do my mixes. 1st fixative, 2nd alcohol, 3rd molecules.

Fly
03-13-2012 11:52 AM
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