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Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
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Fly So Hi
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Post: #11
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 5:30 PM

(03-12-2012 11:52 AM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  ...
But that brings up a good point, it could be possible to use pipettes, but it would be very difficult to automate the ones where you squeeze a bulb at the top. In general I have yet to find a pipette that comes close to the accuracy of a syringe, ut then again I have yet to really look much. I hav the androtics pipettes, and the pale in comparison.
...

Sorry man, i meant a micropipette. The ones like this:

[Image: pipetmanldescription.jpg]

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03-12-2012 5:30 PM
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Post: #12
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 5:38 PM

(03-12-2012 5:30 PM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  Sorry man, i meant a micropipette. The ones like this:

OOoooooo! Looks fancy!

Where is that from? And what kind of accuracy is achieveable? I didn't realize there were plunger pipettes... I can automate a plunger pipette (or anything with a plunger) to be accurate far beyond human accuracy with the same plunger operated device.

Please, tell me more!

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(This post was last modified: 03-12-2012 5:39 PM by gentlmentlemen.)
03-12-2012 5:38 PM
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Post: #13
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 5:44 PM

(03-12-2012 5:38 PM)gentlmentlemen Wrote:  OOoooooo! Looks fancy!

Where is that from? And what kind of accuracy is achieveable? I didn't realize there were plunger pipettes... I can automate a plunger pipette (or anything with a plunger) to be accurate far beyond human accuracy with the same plunger operated device.

Please, tell me more!


This is a Gilson Pipetman L. This type of pipette is generally used in microbiology and other applications. They are really expensive, and can get to the mark of US$ 300,00. Of course you can find cheaper ones. Gilson is a reference when it comes to micropipettes.

The maximum precision you can achieve is 200 nanolitres, that's 0.2 microlitres.

Take a look:
http://gilson.com/en/Pipette/Products/47...16J5J8wLTo
Oh, here's a video:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/uEy_NGDfo_8&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" style="background:url(images/midnight/jump.gif) no-repeat right bottom;padding-right:13px;">http://www.youtube.com/v/uEy_NGDfo_8&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1</a>

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(This post was last modified: 03-12-2012 5:46 PM by Fly So Hi.)
03-12-2012 5:44 PM
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Post: #14
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 5:50 PM

(03-12-2012 5:44 PM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  This is a Gilson Pipetman L. This type of pipette is generally used in microbiology and other applications. They are really expensive, and can get to the mark of US$ 300,00. Of course you can find cheaper ones. Gilson is a reference when it comes to micropipettes.

The maximum precision you can achieve is 200 nanolitres, that's 0.2 microlitres.

Take a look:
http://gilson.com/en/Pipette/Products/47...16J5J8wLTo

Very cool. A bit expensive though. I'll certainly give micropipettes another look though. I wonder how much of that accuracy is from the motor, and how much is from a different pipette design. If you can find me a plunger operated pipette (I'll look myself after dinner), I could probably match that accuracy for pennies on the dollar.

EDIT: (as a DIY of course)

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(This post was last modified: 03-12-2012 5:51 PM by gentlmentlemen.)
03-12-2012 5:50 PM
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Post: #15
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 6:05 PM

A plunger operated pipette would be a micropipette, i think. Not sure what you meant there.

Those are adjustable volume pipettes, as you can see on the video. However, you have the option to buy fixed volume micropipettes for as low as US$ 21,00 in some websites. Of course, you'd need one for each desired volume though.

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(This post was last modified: 03-12-2012 6:06 PM by Fly So Hi.)
03-12-2012 6:05 PM
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Post: #16
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 6:35 PM

(03-12-2012 6:05 PM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  A plunger operated pipette would be a micropipette, i think. Not sure what you meant there.

Those are adjustable volume pipettes, as you can see on the video. However, you have the option to buy fixed volume micropipettes for as low as US$ 21,00 in some websites. Of course, you'd need one for each desired volume though.

Hmmm...


You're right, its a micropipette.

What I wonder is how cheaply I can use some robotics stuff I have lying around to make an automated phero mix maker, with customizeable mixes you can enter in yourself and have it remember the mix for later. Then I can just pick the mix I want and have it go at it while I'm in bed the night before, and wake up to having a fresh made togo. I got into making togos the night before often rather than making larger mixes mainly because if I use a larger mix, I don't want to be stuck with it if its bad. The downside to using togos is that I have to mix quite often, which is both time consuming and leads to much more risk with accidentally spilling bottles, etc. Also, I'm only so accurate with a syringe myself...

I was thinking of having about 30-50 bottles of various molecules, carriers, fragrances, and essential oils, and 1 final bottle which the mix would be put into. This would of course require at least one tip or syringe per bottle, to avoid them being mixed outside the mix bottle.

I think I could fit the machine for a fixed volume pipette though... and then I would only need the tips. I wouldn't think it would be necessary to change the tips out every single use, but I could be wrong. If the tips were kept with the same molecules, and weren't filled with things that need proper disposal or anything, I would think it would be fine, but I suppose it could lead to inaccuracy.

I'd like to see if there's a DIY way to make a phero-mixing machine though, and I'd like to keep it within $50 to $100 at absolute most for the whole package (motors for travelling between bottles, microcontroller (with program) and everything. I think that would be difficult, but possible. One motor to move from bottle to bottle, and another one or two for actually transferring the liquid from the concentrate bottle to the mix bottle.

For now, I think I'll still look into how accurately I can do things with a syringe, simply because of how much cheaper they are. Either one is a possibility though, especially if the syringes' dead space is a consistent, measureable thing within the same syringe being used over and over. I'd like to also get a single volume pipette, but the problem is that they have such small ranges, or have smaller accuracies with the larger ranges it looks like. With a syringe, it may be more inaccurate, but it is e same throughout...

Lots to think about...

For now, I still need to test the sprayers, because I'm pretty sure that will be the weakest link in the chain, and also the most variable (in consistency) from one sprayer type to another.

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(This post was last modified: 03-12-2012 6:36 PM by gentlmentlemen.)
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Post: #17
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 6:43 PM

http://www.labdepotinc.com/Product_Detai...59257.aspx

So I found a list of a few cheap single volume pipettes, and I guess I misunderstood about the range and inaccuracy.

There's a 1000 microliter (1 ml) one there that supposedly has an accuracy within plus or minus 3 microliters, or 6 microliters total. If that has the same accuracy when used at a fraction of the button's depression that could be an option, but now I have another question.

Are these single volume pipettes meant to be used with tips, or alone?

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Post: #18
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 8:11 PM

I'm pretty sure they have to be used with tips. But something like US$ 45,00 for 1000 tips.

Okay, so you're serious about making a "Pheromixer 2000".


I think one of the things you might need is a linear actuator to act on the plunger, that would probably be a fixed volume pipette. Actually, there are pipettes/pipettors that are made using exactly this model of actuator. Of course you'd need to figure it out how much turns your actuator would have to turn to draw exactly the desired volume. Actually, to keep it cheaper, an maybe more precise, you could use a stepper motor.

Second, you'd need yes, the motor, to move the "needle" on the horizontal axis (just like an inkjet printer) to draw the liquid out of the bottles. Remember you'd have to move the whole mechanism (actuator thing) left and right to make this work (again, just like a printer). A second stepper motor should be used for this function, instead of a DC motor.

Something like this.


To make it easier, I suggest you use a third stepper motor to rotate some sort of plate/dish where your concentrate bottles will stand. Just like a roulette, got it?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/sRIBZFlxGIw&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" style="background:url(images/midnight/jump.gif) no-repeat right bottom;padding-right:13px;">http://www.youtube.com/v/sRIBZFlxGIw&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1</a>


Tricky part:
You have to make sure the needle/tip always stays below the liquid surface. Maybe you'd need another linear actuator to either push this plate up or the needle down.


The machine would also have to know which slot in the rotating plate contains which molecule. Once you're planning on using a microcontroller, it would probably be best if you throw a few more code lines so you could say to the machine which slot contains which molecule.

The resistor/transistor part of the circuit itself is really ease to make. Or maybe use an Arduino, don't know...

It would take a bit of work, but seems you're comfortable with mechatronics and programing, so it will be easy for you.

Fly
(This post was last modified: 03-12-2012 8:45 PM by Fly So Hi.)
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Post: #19
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 9:02 PM

(03-12-2012 8:11 PM)Fly So Hi Wrote:  I'm pretty sure they have to be used with tips. But something like US$ 45,00 for 1000 tips.

Okay, so you're serious about making a "Pheromixer 2000".


I think one of the things you might need is a linear actuator to act on the plunger, that would probably be a syringe or a fixed volume pipette. Actually, there are pipettes/pipettors that are made using exactly this model of actuator. Of course you'd need to figure it out how much turns your actuator would have to turn to draw exactly the desired volume.

Second, you'd need yes, the motor, to move the "needle" on the horizontal axis (just like an inkjet printer) to draw the liquid out of the bottles. Remember you'd have to move the whole mechanism (actuator thing) left and right to make this work (again, just like a printer).

Something like this.


To make it easier, I suggest you use a step motor to rotate some sort of plate/dish where your concentrate bottles will stand. Just like a roulette, got it? The tricky part of this is that you have to make sure the needle/tip always stays below the liquid surface. Maybe you'd need another linear actuator to either push this plate up or the needle down.

The machine would also have to know which slot in the rotating plate contains which molecule. Once you're planning on using a microcontroller, it would probably be best if you throw a few more code lines so you could say to the machine which slot contains which molecule.

The resistor/transistor part of the circuit itself is really ease to make.

It would take a bit of work, but seems you're comfortable with mechatronics and programing, so it will be easy for you.

Great minds think alike I suppose.

This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking and planning. I started by building my own linear actuator which I talked about in the first post, figuring that while the tracking from bottle to bottle and programming would be no less difficult, it would be far less important as far as how well it does the job. The linear actuator on the other hand is one of the most important parts, the other stuff is pretty much just to move it around. However after I had gotten a fairly satisfying result using 2 chained worm gears (probably the best thing to use in this situation) and slight springs to apply pressure to them to better mesh the gears, I realized I might have been more accurate than the syringes I was going to be using anyways.

I was thinking rotary as well for holding the bottles at first, but I'd also like to fit this into a relatively small place if possible. This will be a "Pheromixer 2000, Home Edition" so to speak if I can manage it. I set a goal for myself to try to make it fit in a shoebox. Might be useful as well to have it fit onto the fridge shelf.

I was thinking a grid would be most space efficient. So I was thinking a track built above this grid of bottles with a track curving from one row to turn the thing around to go down the next row, thus using a single motor to go back and forth down the rows.

I was also planning on having a covering which went over the grid of bottles with a soft sealing material to seal them when it is lowered. I think the motor that drives it around the track could initially slide this covering off like a drawer and then slide it back on when it gets to the end of the track. This way, the need for having the machine deal with the caps is removed, but if I forget or don't have time, they still will be sealed at the end. Also it should work pretty well even with different bottle sizes if I add set screws to the bottom of the platform to raise or lower the heights of the bottles properly.

As far as lowering the syringe/pipettes, I agree there needs to be something to do that, and while technically it should be possible to gear things from the same motor that drives it around the track, the gearing on that track motor would start to be a nightmare, and I think if you had independant control over that it would be better, because of what you just said. The microcontroller would also need to keep track of the height of the liquid in each bottle, which it would have to calculate based on being given the radius or other dimmensions. I might have an option for adding another shape to the bottle at the bottom (besides the cylinder part) such as a cone, because bottles with tapered bottoms would work much better. But if I have it keep the tip well enough below the surface, it shouldn't be an issue for most bottles.

I was thinking that the same motor moving the pipette/syringe as a whole up and down could also rotate the mix bottle underneath when the pipette/syringe is raised to its highest point.

So in conclusion it would happen something like this:

You put the bottles in, tell it how much fluid is in each, and an approximate of their dimensions. Give it a mix's instructions and off it goes.

The track motor starts up, and the lid/cover is slid off exactly one bottle ahead (behind in the other direction) of the linear actuator.

The linear actuator is pushed towards the pipette tip/syringe by the main track's motor, and after making good contact with the parts holding those up, is able to control them. The linear actuator then takes up any slack by moving a little in the upward direction.

The motor for moving the syringe/pipette as a whole lowers the tip into the liquid, and rotates the mix bottle down and out of the way.

The linear actuator pulls the liquid into the syringe while the motor lowering/raising the whole thing keeps the tip in the liquid.

The motor raising/lowering the linear actuator raises the pipette/syringe and rotates the mix bottle up beneath the pipette/syringe.

The linear actuator puts the pipette/syringe all the way back to the "0" calibration, expelling all the fluid it can into the mix bottle.

The track motor moves the whle thing down another bottle.

Rinse and Repeat.

Shouldn't be too hard, which is why I'm going to try to fit it into a shoebox and see if it is possible to make one for as cheap as possible. The first time around though I don't think I'll worry about how cheap it is too much just to avoid the hassle, but eventually I'd like to get to something simple enough and cheap enough for lots of people to build.


BUT

Without getting too far ahead of myself (haha little too late)

It will be more important to find out how these sprayers perform I think, and will also give the community immediate info they can work with, rather than some yet-to-be-optimized design that will likely have some kinks in it to work out at first. And like I said, the sprayer will probably be the weakest link in the chain of events delivering the molecules to the skin, so it would be the best use of time to look into tightening up that first.

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(This post was last modified: 03-12-2012 9:09 PM by gentlmentlemen.)
03-12-2012 9:02 PM
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Post: #20
RE: Sprayers, Scales, and Syringes
03-12-2012 9:19 PM

Wow. No idea why I didn't think of using the computer to control it though... could hold a lot more info without making the thing more expensive and would probably make programming easier too but...

Well gosh darn it, I know I had a reason when I first started thinking of this stuff, but now I can't remember it. It'll probably come back eventually though.

Fly So Hi,

You seem to have a decent amount of experience in this stuff as well. Are you just someone who has played around with it a lot? Or do you do stuff with this in your job or in competitions like I used to?

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