Hi All,

In my line of work my people and I often find ourselves in close quarters with nervous and tense clients. The effects of stress on the body and the attendant chemical "stew" of cortisol, HGH, epinephrine/norepinephrine, etc., in the bloodstream are well known, but my question is how these phenomena affect the efficacy of a given product. In other words; I'm researching the possibility of employing pheromone products - worn by employees - to engender certain desireable responses in clients, but first I would like to know to what degree, if any, client stress may negatively impact the nature of said response(s). The current data does not really inform the issue so I am looking for experiential data - "humint" I guess - from users who might be able to shed some light on this for me (although I am just as eager to lay my mits on any clinical data as well.)

So, what can you guys tell me about this? Is a stressed-out person liable to react differently to you if you're wearing a pheromone product than, say, a relaxed, "lookin' fer a good time" person in a nightclub? If so, how so? The effects I am interested in are those that promote a calming, "all-is-well," "you're in good hands" kind of feeling. In a word, safety. I want my clients to feel safe and secure in the presence of their consultant. However, I read about adverse reactions due to several factors that can result in aggression from nearby males (the very LAST thing I want to do) and revulsion from females (not as bad, but still awful) and wonder if undue stress in the intended, what?... "recipient" can lead to this as well. (What do you call the person affected by what you're wearing? The mark? The victim? The target? Tango?)

All feedback welcome! Thanx!

~Op

The male aggression and female revulsion reactions are generally caused by AndrostEnone, which is or at least was the most used pheromone in male products. It is known as the SEX pheromone, and the reason for potential male aggression is probably due to casuing the wearer to appear as a threat or competitor. In women I believe the reason for potential revulsion is that the wearer can come accross as being too sexually agressivve.

Women can also respond very differently to AndrostEnone exposure, depending on where they are in their menstrual cycle.

In your line of work you should probably lean heavily toward the social pheromones, such as Alpha and Beta Androstenol, DHEAS, Pregnenolone, EST, and maybe the THDOC's. There are others as well, but I believe those are some of the most popular and easiest to find information on.

As to stress impacting intended targets differently, I would say that pheromones could have a lesser or greater impact, but I don't believe stress will actually alter the type of effect.

I would say that stress could be an additional obstacle to overcome, and the more stressed out the individual is the less susceptible they may be to pheromonal influence, but the type of influence a pheropmone exerts is not going to change.

Hope that's helpful.

Hey Mark,

Yeah, that was right on the money boss. Exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. And thank you for being comprehensive; few things are as tiresome as a primer that assumes one knows too much. I know nothing.

Now, and please don't interpret this as a challenge - it most certainly is not, I defer entirely to your expertise - but is there any clinical/peer reviewed authority behind your assertion [that impact manitude is generally the sole aspect affected by stress]? Or is your belief experiential (I woud imagine collectively) and the authority anecdotal? Again, anecdotal works for me in an interested community of sufficient size, and this forum satisfies that caveat by a margin. The only reason I ask is that I am curious and would very much like to get my eyes on any studies that may exist.

Also, could someone maybe expand on the menstrual cycle and pheromones? In my industry there has long been an understanding that the frequency of events of at least "incident" level increase or decrease with sexually viable female clients in a cycle synchronous to that client's menstrual cycle. The standing theory is that they give subtle physical cues, but now I wonder. In any case if you, Mark, or anyone else could flesh out the whole pheromones/menstrual cycle thing I'd appreciate it.

Last, are there any really solid, comprehensive primers available anywhere? Seems like most of what I'm finding is product information. Three aspects I'm looking to understand are: chemical, socio/behavioral, pharmacokinetics (if that even applies).

Thanx again Mark for your reply, just dead-on.

~Op

There have not been many clinical studies on pheromones, and to be blunt, I trust my own and other phero users observations and experiences far more than any cold clinical studies or scientific peer reviewed material that may one day be produced.

As to agression and revulsion that can be caused by AndrostEnone, let's just say for a minute that a clinical trial was done or material written and peer reviewed by the scientific community, and they came to the conclusion that AndrostEnone had no pheromonal qualities, but your employees wore it and observed otherwise, and reported their female clientelle distancing themselves from those that were supposed to be protecting them, and the male clients acting rebellous?

Who would you believe? We have many male and female members who's anecdotal experiences I place far more faith in than anything scienctific conclussions.

You already know the answer to your next question. The reason your incident levels vary according where the females are in their menstraul cycles are that the closer they are the more fertile they become. Now remember, AndrostEnone is the SEX pheromone and signals male verility. So it's easy to see the conection between the 2.

Whether you believe in evolution or creation, we are still animals and have a deep seated instinctual urge to propagate the species.

It is also a proven fact that pheroones are what cause women to sync menstraul cycles when living in close quarters.

I'm sorry there's no concrete information to be found on our little voodoo science, although if there was, we wouldn't quite have the edge that we do.

The best compiled primer I've found is dbots listing of single molecules on Hacking the Hive. See the links at the bottom of this page.

http://hackingthehive.com/wiki/main/pheromones/

and especially this page;

http://hackingthehive.com/wiki/main/pher...molecules/

Androstenol response in women is cyclical.

Quote:In the middle of their monthly cycle those females exposed to androstenol rather than a control tended to rate their moods as submissive rather than aggressive.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6891608

Alpha androstenol seems to work, in part, via GABAergic receptors. Drugs which block those receptors (coffee) will tend to dull the effects of alpha androstenol.

Similarly, people on anti-anxiety meds are likely to be much more strongly affected, to the point of needing a nap.

As Mark suggested, you're most likely to get adverse hits with androstEnone and androstERone. AndrostAnone, for what it's worth, is an alpha molecule which doesn't seem to get negative hits if you don't overdose. The "pick up artist" types use it to influece the effects of androstEnone, but if your primary goal is avoiding negative hits, it's a great addition. Androstanone is a sort of a 'friendly strength' type of molecule. To avoid negative hits, don't use more than ~4mcg of Androstanone ~.5mcg of Androstenone and 1 or 2 mcg of Androsterone. You CAN wear more, and many people do. But some people will react negatively in certain situations. Outside of that, what Mark said is on the money. The interest generating molecules and social molecules are always pretty safe and hobby-ists tend to have a better feel for what molecules do than the formal literature. (And I've done what I can to wade through the formal literature.)

androstadienone is another molecule covered a lot in the formal lit, btw. It raises cortisol in men and women (reducing physical distance and elevating mood with women and sometimes causing depression and aversion in men.)

(05-05-2012 12:01 PM)OpR8R Wrote:  In my line of work my people and I often find ourselves in close quarters with nervous and tense clients.

I work in medicine and I find myself in those situations as well. I am very careful of what I wear if I wear any at all. I deal with alot of stressed out people on the reg. I usually rock the mone free colognes or occasional social mixes. I tend to leave the blood sugar sex magic mixes at home for the club scene. LOL

(05-05-2012 12:01 PM)OpR8R Wrote:  I'm researching the possibility of employing pheromone products - worn by employees - to engender certain desireable responses in clients,

What you are aiming at is a type of aromatherapy. Mostly defined as the use of aromatic compounds for the purpose of altering a person's mind, mood, cognitive function or health. There are 2 mechanisms thought to bring about effects. One is the direct influence of aromas on the brain, most notably the limbic system through the olfactory system. The other is the direct pharmacological effects of the essential oils (or pheromones) themselves. There is light sporadic clinical research in these fields but the efficacy of aromatherapy remains quite unproven still. Not much is understood here and the FDA is a bit grey on it all because you are attempting to elicit a specific response which could be deemed a form of treatment or prevention.

I'm still a bit fuzzy about the stressed out person reacting to mones thing. Stressed out as in a bitter cougar PMS rant, or stressed out like fight or flight adrenal responses? Stressed out people adversely react to many stimuli whether you wear mones or not. I would definitely think a high Androstenone signature worn around a little kid who has lost his mom would not help the situation but would not make the kid go crazy from it. (I don't think..) At best a friendly social mix may enable better communication. Stressed out people usually act rather irrational and are subject to alot more than pheromones. Here we see that pheromones are just a bit of the sparkle of the star not the star itself.

I had a talk with Chris at Alpha Dream about this awhile back. I asked why don't they pump calming pheromone mixes into hospitals, or develop a "compliance" mone for nurses or teachers. Why don't some social workers uses social mone mixes to enable better communication with clients? (I think this is kinda where you are aiming) We decided that there was alot of grey area concerning the FDA and the basic premise that one is intentionally trying to psychologically alter someone with or without their consent. I would assume that the classification of odorant or cosmetic would be correct when concerning pheromone usage and those that govern them would want some of the action as well.

Hope this helped some, LOL, just my .02 on it

(05-05-2012 8:07 PM)thundr Wrote:  We decided that there was alot of grey area concerning the FDA and the basic premise that one is intentionally trying to psychologically alter someone with or without their consent. I would assume that the classification of odorant or cosmetic would be correct when concerning pheromone usage and those that govern them would want some of the action as well.

I think it could go deeper than that. We are using human hormones, or a byproduct of those hormones, and attempting to cause a physiological response.

I know that they are just starting to look at using pheromones as potential treatment options for certain diseases, and if much success is ever achieved in doing so, it could lead to pheromones being reclassified and full on FDA regulation.

I really don't see that happening though, as I don't think that any pheromonal response has near the potency to overcome the chemical imbalaces in the disorders.

(05-05-2012 9:52 PM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  I think it could go deeper than that. We are using human hormones, or a byproduct of those hormones, and attempting to cause a physiological response.

Human or not, in the all-seeing eyes of the feds it still can be considered a treatment option and the FDA will shamelessly slap their classic disclaimer on it

(05-05-2012 9:52 PM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  I know that they are just starting to look at using pheromones as potential treatment options for certain diseases, and if much success is ever achieved in doing so, it could lead to pheromones being reclassified and full on FDA regulation.

I'm an outside of the box thinker and feel modern western medicine is linear crap due to the fear of social and judicial repercussions.
Trust me I'm all for it but sadly it will never come to fruition unless the FDA can figure out a way to make a buck off it.

(05-05-2012 9:52 PM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  I think it could go deeper than that. We are using human hormones, or a byproduct of those hormones, and attempting to cause a physiological response.

I know that they are just starting to look at using pheromones as potential treatment options for certain diseases, and if much success is ever achieved in doing so, it could lead to pheromones being reclassified and full on FDA regulation.

I really don't see that happening though, as I don't think that any pheromonal response has near the potency to overcome the chemical imbalaces in the disorders.

Do you know which diseases and disorders they are looking to treat?

I believe that I've read Alzheimers, autism and depression are 3 being looked at, and found one far reaching hypothesis that pheromones could be used to control prostate activity in men to reduce the risk of cancer.