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Relationship between stress and efficacy
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wiserd
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Post: #11
RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy
05-06-2012 11:52 AM

(05-06-2012 11:13 AM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  I believe that I've read Alzheimers, autism and depression are 3 being looked at, and found one far reaching hypothesis that pheromones could be used to control prostate activity in men to reduce the risk of cancer.

Alzheimers makes sense. Destruction of cells in the hilus of the hippocampus responsible for producing GABA endogenously look like a likely cause for the disease.

... prostate activity though? That's surprising. If you find a link to that, please share.

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05-06-2012 11:52 AM
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OpR8R
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Post: #12
RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy
05-06-2012 12:38 PM

(05-05-2012 12:39 PM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  I'm sorry there's no concrete information to be found on our little voodoo science, although if there was, we wouldn't quite have the edge that we do.
Not quite sure how to read this, so I'll cover the bases: If you took offense that was certainly not my intention. I thought I had indicated that anecdotal evidence was fine by me given basic considerations (like a long enuf baseline), my only thought was to find out if there indeed was any clinical data as that could only help. So there is no need to apologize for any dearth of same. There is an old saying, "No plan survives first contact." Every soldier/sailor/warrior/cop/etc. who has ever closed with the enemy knows this at his/her core. That is to say that, no matter what the "experts" say, the instant you engage all predictions/plans go right out the window and, at best, will serve from then on only as a loose guideline. If I'm marching into a vil with intel in-hand generated by the think-tank guys way back in the rear saying that it's clear and sanitized, and I meet a platoon going the other way telling me "No chief, that vil crawls," I'm gonna go with the "anecdotal" from the real-time actors every time. Like I said, got no problem with anecdotal in the right context.

The existence of clinical data says more than just that indicated by the data itself; it suggests to what degree mainstream science either regards or disregards a thing. That in itself can be quite telling. Further, I often find that clinical evidence that happens to corroborate the anecdotes will often illuminate certain aspects of understanding that, while maybe not of any particular interest to most, satisfies my peculiar bent. It has been my experience that most folks don't much care how a thing works, as long as it works. I don't know why and stopped apologizing for it a log time ago, but my make-up demands that I know why/how a thing works, and it will drive me nuts until I do. Conversely, sometimes the way in which clinical data debunks a thing is telling; often it reveals an agenda. Etc., etc.

So, it is not that the collective wisdom and practical experience of the many users of these products is meaningless to me, far from it. That's why I'm here to begin with. But by the same token I'm not gonna eschew any clinical data just cuz it's clinical. I'm just looking for the roundest dataset I can acquire; If you'd given me a bunch of clinical data I would have asked for more anecdotal.

Anyway, thanx for your reply and again, if I offended it was not my intention. Have a great day!
05-06-2012 12:38 PM
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Post: #13
RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy
05-06-2012 12:58 PM

(05-05-2012 1:48 PM)wiserd Wrote:  The best compiled primer I've found is dbots listing of single molecules on Hacking the Hive. See the links at the bottom of this page.

http://hackingthehive.com/wiki/main/pheromones/

and especially this page;

http://hackingthehive.com/wiki/main/pher...molecules/


Androstenol response in women is cyclical.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6891608
Thanx so much, exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for.


Quote:Similarly, people on anti-anxiety meds are likely to be much more strongly affected, to the point of needing a nap.
Helpful nugget, and one I hadn't thought of. It is often amazing to me the pharmaceutical regimens our clients are prescribed, and anti-depressants and anti-anxiety (benzos particularly) top the list.

Quote:, but if your primary goal is avoiding negative hits, it's a great addition.
My ideal goal, understanding of course that there are no magic bullets, would be to create a safe, secure, "all-is-well" kind of feeling. That feeling we all felt as children when, even though we were in the middle of some crisis, because dear old Dad was on the scene it was a foregone conclusion that everthing was well in hand and that at the end of the day all would be set right again. Because of this we were able to completely disconnect from whatever calamity had befallen us. Storms, blackouts, etc., were fun when we were kids. They only became a pain in the ass once we became adults and had to deal with them ourselves. I want my clients to be able to relax knowing that they're safe and sound as long as their SC is nearby. Again, I understand perfectly that nothing exists that will simply make this happen with a couple pumps of the spray bottle, but this is what I'm aiming for.

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply, I truly appreciate it.

~Op
05-06-2012 12:58 PM
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mark-in-dallas
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Post: #14
RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy
05-06-2012 1:05 PM

It was David Berliner of Pherin that hypothesized controlling prostate active with pheromones, noting that excessive testosterone is a factor in causing prostate cancer, and that pheromones are capable of regulating testosterone production.

Tisha posted an article on it in the pherotalk studies and abstracts forum a number of years ago. Here's a link to that article, as well as the few others I could find, although none come from authoritive websites.

http://www.pheromonetalk.com/studies-abs...24214.html

http://www.fiora.com/stern.htm

http://whyfiles.org/033love/main5.html

Nobody changes until the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of change....

A guilty conscience can be more cruel a judge than any court of law. In the end its not how many toys we had, and all that we ever were are the impressions we left on those we leave behind, so live your life as you'd want to be remembered when you're gone!
05-06-2012 1:05 PM
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Post: #15
RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy
05-06-2012 1:25 PM

(05-05-2012 6:07 PM)thundr Wrote:  I'm still a bit fuzzy about the stressed out person reacting to mones thing. Stressed out as in a bitter cougar PMS rant, or stressed out like fight or flight adrenal responses?
Fight-or-fight. Stressed out as in "some crazed fan (or ex, or govt., etc.) is trying to harm/kill me." Our copy reads "Significant and substantiated fear of bodily harm or death" or something like that, don't have it in front of me. At times, I would imagine that it is on par with the level and intensity of a critical ER patient who is alert and responsive and also aware of the gravity of their condition/trauma/whatever. Freaked out and not entirely sure they're gonna live. It is unfortunate, but true, that many of our clients don't come to us when they start getting the "I love you so much that I'm gonna kill and eat you so we can be together forever" letters, but only after said amorous psycho has attacked them in an elevator wearing only the client's concert T-shirt 6 weeks later and their hollywood "for show only" so-called bodyguards have completely dropped the ball. Often (not always) by the time we get them they're damaged and fearful and have had their faith in their protectors completely shattered. For some of them, short of successfully defending them in an all-out attempt on their lives (the LAST thing we want to see happen) there is little hope of convincing them that they are now, finally, in good hands.

So you can see where any measure that we might employ to mitigate their anxiety would be helpful. Though they're not all basket cases, most fall somewhere on the curve or they wouldn't be contracting my firm's services to begin with. One thing that is critical in any threat scenario is that the client listen and comply with their SC instantly and without question. Often this will be the deciding factor as the client is the focal point of any attack and what they're doing and where they are at any given moment is the most relevant aspect of the fight. I want them all, to the greatest degree possible, to feel like their SC is their lifeline, that he knows exactly what to do and that they should trust him implicitly.

Again, I am aware that there are no magic bullets and that my clients represent the far end of the stress curve, so achieving 100% success is a pipe dream. But if there exists some measure by which I can even nudge them a bit I'll be pleased. "Less Freaked-out" is fine, know what I mean?

Hope this is helpful! Thanx for your input!

~Op
(This post was last modified: 05-06-2012 1:46 PM by OpR8R.)
05-06-2012 1:25 PM
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Post: #16
RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy
05-06-2012 1:47 PM

QUOTE='wiserd' pid='47936' dateline='1336326724']
Alzheimers makes sense. Destruction of cells in the hilus of the hippocampus responsible for producing GABA endogenously look like a likely cause for the disease. [/QUOTE]

Hippocampal atrophy and neuron loss are indeed found in Alzheimer's disease. Parvalbumin is at the forefront of these studies so far. PV proteins play a role in a ton of physiological processes and 2nd messenger production. It's present in GABAergic interneurons in the nervous system and could prolly explain why Parkinson's and Altzheimers often go hand n hand as they both may be triggered by the similar chemical imbalances that can cause brain lesions and plaque. Some data suggests that paranoia and schizophrenia can possibly be subject of this as well, hence y I just typed all that. LOL Really trying to stay on topic... PV interneurons thought to be a major contributor to brainwave frequencies (gamma). Gamma wave manipulation was another one of my failed entrainment experiments on myself and messed me up for a couple days. But thats another topic. Cest la vie.

Most symptoms of Altz and Park don't hit ya until you're like 60ish so at some point while we are turning into old farts our bodies have a harder time balancing out these ratios. Especially if the individual is environmentally or genetically susceptible to said afflictions. However many similar chemical imbalances that can give rise to mental illnesses (genetic, behavioral, environmental etc) can be manifested at any age. I'm going off topic again I think...

Bottom line is I'm not trying to give a huge lesson in biochem, just tryin to give yall a rough idea of what is up and coming on research and the obstacles that are faced here from someone who is on the frontlines of these endeavors. Decreased PV expression is thought to be a major contributor to schizophrenia as well and this is where it overlaps and that's what I've been working on for a few years now. Perhaps at a later date I will be able to provide a link on any concrete publications I make or find concerning such.

I have been talking with a member of this forum about my theory of flying certain chemicals or possible trandermal applications that may be fermented by bacterial skin colonies. Chemicals like antipsychotic drug haloperidol, or rather a derivative of it, is what I've been focusing on. It may be a bit heavy to fly, if it can fly at all. Best case scenario a medicinal cologne could perhaps be worn for those afflicted with delirium and psychosis without the need for oral ingestion. A steady calming effect could likely be induced by the wearer and/or caregivers around the afflicted to possibly induce better communication in compliance-hindered patients. That's y I responded to this thread.

This is all first stage hypotheses but 2 of my patients have Altzheimers and unfortunately alot of things like FDA regulations, and the slow processes it takes to create legal and valid therapies, bind the hands that are eager to help. So I get to provide hypotheses, experimental ideas, and rogue research in hopes that someday they will stick. Until then, I get to sit back hands tied and watch the slow decline of these friends. Hurts my heart.

(05-06-2012 12:58 PM)OpR8R Wrote:  My ideal goal, understanding of course that there are no magic bullets, would be to create a safe, secure, "all-is-well" kind of feeling.

It seems as if we have quite a bit in common concerning this objective my friend albeit aimed at different targets.

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05-06-2012 1:47 PM
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Post: #17
RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy
05-06-2012 2:05 PM

(05-05-2012 6:07 PM)thundr Wrote:  The other is the direct pharmacological effects of the essential oils (or pheromones) themselves.

This is fascinating to me. I had (in a previous post somewhere, maybe not here) asked for any data regarding the pharma of pheromones, but only because I wondered if there was any. So then, there is some pharmacological effect? Fascinating.

Quote:It seems as if we have quite a bit in common concerning this objective my friend albeit aimed at different targets.

This being what you mentioned about pumping 'mones into hospitals? Or does your objective lie elsewhere? Hmm. Or even prisons, huh? Maybe even the battlefield; a 'mone munition. Talk about a smart bomb. I guess the applications are probably endless. How have I missed this all this time?
05-06-2012 2:05 PM
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Post: #18
RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy
05-06-2012 2:16 PM

(05-06-2012 1:25 PM)OpR8R Wrote:  Stressed out as in "some crazed fan (or ex, or govt., etc.) is trying to harm/kill me." Our copy reads "Significant and substantiated fear of bodily harm or death" or something like that, don't have it in front of me. I would imagine that it is on par with the level and intensity of a critical ER patient who is alert and responsive and also aware of the gravity of their condition/trauma/whatever. Freaked out and not sure they're gonna live. It is unfortunate, but true, that most of our clients don't come to us when they start getting the "I love you so much that I'm gonna kill and eat you so we can be together forever" letters, but only after said amorous psycho has attacked them in an elevator 6 weeks later and their hollywood "for show only" so-called bodyguards have completely dropped the ball. By the time we get them they're damaged and fearful and have had their faith in their protectors completely shattered. Short of successfully defending them in an all-out attempt on their lives (the LAST thing we want to see happen) there is little hope of convincing them that they are now, finally, in good hands.

So you can see where any measure that we might employ to mitigate their anxiety would be helpful. One thing that is critical in any threat scenario is that the client listen and comply with their SC instantly and without question. Often this will be the deciding factor as the client is the focal point of any attack and what they're doing and where they are at any given moment is the most relevant aspect of the fight. I want them, to the greatest degree possible, to feel like their SC is their lifeline, that he knows exactly what to do and that they should trust him implicitly.

Hope this is helpful! Thanx for your input!

~Op

The majority of the products out there are geared towards goals other than yours, so I'd suggest making your own mix to get what you want. Alpha Dream's corporativo comes close to what you're suggesting in terms of it's goals as does Androtics a314. But Corporativo seems a bit heavy on the Androstenone which (in my personal opinion) can be problematic for a variety of reasons. Androstenone builds up on people over time, confounding accurate dosage. This molecule is the #1 cause of bad hits and tends to have a bad overdose where the wearer is actively avoided. A314 is way overpriced, it also has Androstenone, Androtics is tight lipped about most ingredients and they've pissed a lot of people off by changing the dosage in their mixes with little warning, among other things.

I'd say that alpha-androsteRone would be the primary molecule that fits your criteria. ( I've never tried beta-Androsterone myself so I won't comment on its usefulness to you.) It's possible your guys may get a little shit testing from the Androsterone at first where people try and see if they match their pheromone signature, but I imagine they can pass that and be fine. This is usually as benign as questions about their background and relevant experience. AndrostAnone is a wonderful molecule suggesting friendly strength, and consistently beautiful in doses below 5mcg. It may require a cover scent as it's said to smell a little like urine. Androstenone in very small amounts ( less than .5 mcg, and this stuff sticks around after other mones have evaporated and can build up) can be social even if larger amounts intimidate and suggest aggression. A little DHEA to indicate a non-threatening nature but not too much or it will make your people seem less dominant. A little bit of Nols can help make the alpha mixes more social as well. Many people choose primarily alpha nols with a little beta nol, but that will have people chatting up a storm. I wonder if a mix heavier on beta nols might serve you better in fostering an environment of trust that's not overly chatty. The general rule is that alpha nols increase the volume of conversation and beta nols increase the depth. Nols are great for creating a bond between people, same as sharing a beer would, but they're distracting in a number of ways.

I'm sure you could get some great reviews from your female clients with stuff like androstadienone or the androstadienols (and much higher chance of romantic attachment), or various interest-generating molecules like androstAnol, Alpha THDOC etc. (And Chris seems to have some great new molecules coming out as well) But getting the client to like your guy, while probably very helpful in terms of customer satisfaction, doesn't explicitly match your stated goals. Androstadienone would definitely help reduce physical space between your guy and your client if the client were female. But you'd need to avoid it like the plague if there were men around. (or at least use it in low doses, like less than 10mcg, and well buffered with Est which elevates mood in men.)

Dbot described Est as tending to get him adopted. According to the formal literature, EST has no impact on women and elevates mood in men. But most people here, myself included, don't agree with that assessment outside of the "mood elevation in men part". EST tends to get others to protect and help the wearer,both men and women, and fosters attachments. A small amount could help with creating a bond and making your guy less threatening.

For what it's worth, you mentioned anti-depressants. Some folks on the forum have mentioned that people on anti-depressants or birth control respond less well to certain mones. Personally, I haven't noticed any difference with anti-depressants. My wife used to be on several anti-depressants and she responded as well on mones as she did off of them.

Regarding formal lit;
There's formal literature on Androstenone, EST and androstadienone, but it tends to be pretty basic. Increases in blood flow to body parts. Odds of buying a chair or using a urinal sprayed with Androstenone. Mood elevation from EST. Smelling androstadienone was shown to increase cortisol in men and women. That's one of the more detailed results I've seen.

Sorry this is overly long. Hope it's useful. If possible, it'd be interesting to hear results. Good luck!

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(This post was last modified: 05-06-2012 2:22 PM by wiserd.)
05-06-2012 2:16 PM
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Post: #19
RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy
05-06-2012 2:52 PM

(05-06-2012 2:16 PM)wiserd Wrote:  Sorry this is overly long. Hope it's useful. If possible, it'd be interesting to hear results. Good luck!

No, no, no, no, no...this is definitely NOT overly long. Thank you so much for your input, it is EXACTLY what I'm looking for. Please, whenever you feel lke answering any question that I might ask, feel free to drone on and on. Assume I know nothing at all. Better yet, assume I am an idiot. I am soaking up all of this like a sponge and I learned a long time ago to NEVER resent redundant data. Like I told Mark (I think) few things are as tiresome as a primer (or advice) that assumes one knows too much. Thanx again!

~Op
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Post: #20
RE: Relationship between stress and efficacy
05-06-2012 3:46 PM

(05-06-2012 2:05 PM)OpR8R Wrote:  This being what you mentioned about pumping 'mones into hospitals? Or does your objective lie elsewhere? Hmm. Or even prisons, huh? Maybe even the battlefield; a 'mone munition. Talk about a smart bomb. I guess the applications are probably endless. How have I missed this all this time?

I have only been learning about the effects of the different human pheromones for a couple weeks. There are many on this forum more knowledgeable than I in this particular field of study. My knowledge and lit of pheromones beforehand was based on insects in biochem/entomology classes. I managed to assimilate as much as I could sponge in this short time yet still the possibilities seem infinite.

Knowledge in any area is power. However with that power comes the responsibility to use it justly. In my opinion the majority of what is out there now, publicly known, most is rather harmless novel sociological experimentation by enthusiasts/hobbyists.

Coupled in synergy with applications from other sciences I can see the possibility of small to moderate positive impacts on society as scientists and chemists dive deeper into the rabbit hole. However, I have also tried to understand how its usage could create a negative impact as well. Even on a one way street I like to look both ways before crossing.

From the jump I have tried to visualize both sides of this pheromone nickel. I've done the same with somewhat related sciences of NLP, PUA, black ops, brain entrainment, hypnosis etc etc. I've tried to take the good from all these and junk the bad. I personally like pushing the balance toward the positive elements while retracting from the negatives. Kinda like how Bruce Lee took many fighting styles and combined them into his own Jeet Kune Do. Pheromone use is just another art. A hammer in the hands of the skilled can build marvelous structures, or the unskilled can smash their thumbs.

So far my experiences with mones have been very positive. I like using pheromones to assist with fun and possibly some form of future medical applications. This forum is choked full of amazingly intelligent members and I have learned a great deal from many of them. I enjoy watching the effects pheromones have on everyday life. I can definitely say the past 2 weeks have been very interesting. However, similar to the physical aspect in martial arts there are some VERY mentally powerful practitioners out there who misuse certain techniques and frankly they scare the shit out of me.

I still question on the reg how far into the rabbit hole I will go. My wallet is over here laughing at me right now. Shut up wallet.

Journal: http://pherotruth.com/Thread-Riders-On-The-Storm
05-06-2012 3:46 PM
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