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Obamacare, Just say No. Virginia Did!
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mark-in-dallas
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Obamacare, Just say No. Virginia Did!
03-17-2010 6:49 AM

And a number of other states have bills in the works to nullify any federal healthcare bill too.

Nancy Pelosi is trying to ram one of the most widely disliked and disputed bills to ever pass before Congress down our throats, and has made some of the dumbest statements I've ever heard to champion her cause. I've got something I'd like to ram down her fucking throat!

Nancy Pelosi Wrote:"Bipartisanship is a two-way street. A bill can be bipartisan without bipartisan votes. Republicans have left their imprint."

Explanation please? Rolleyes

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/fUOVBKCyZS8&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/fUOVBKCyZS8&amp;rel=0&amp;fs=1</a>

Nobody changes until the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of change....
03-17-2010 6:49 AM
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Mtnjim
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RE: Obamacare, Just say No. Virginia Did!
03-17-2010 12:00 PM

(03-17-2010 6:49 AM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  And a number of other states have bills in the works to nullify any federal healthcare bill too.

Absolutely, we will not be dragged kicking and screaming into the 19th century!!!

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---Lazerous Long
03-17-2010 12:00 PM
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petrucci77
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RE: Obamacare, Just say No. Virginia Did!
03-17-2010 2:09 PM

I don't want to start a lenghty discussion again (like I did before over at the other PT regarding the US american weapons bills ;)), but I'd really like to understand what the arguments against the plans of Obamas are. As far as I understand he wants to establish a nationwide non-private health insurance system, which will be obligatory for every american citizen. Right? We've got a similar system in Germany since many decades and it has proved to be the best system possible - the people who have much pay more than the people with less income (for workless people the state pays the money) so good health care is provided to all german citizens regardless of their income. We do have private health insurance also, but a study that I've read lately has proven this system to be extremely ineffective (the cost for adminstration is 500% as high as it is for the non-private health insurance).

Sooo... having heard that quite a big percentage of the american citizens is against such system I'd like to know why that is? Especially seeing that the cost for the current health care system in the US is absurdely high compared to other countries like Germany (the US health care system is the one with the highest per-head cost of all countries. Here in Germany it's only half the cost).

I guess it will all boil down to different cultures again (and me being a socialist at heart ;)).
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2010 2:15 PM by petrucci77.)
03-17-2010 2:09 PM
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Mtnjim
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RE: Obamacare, Just say No. Virginia Did!
03-17-2010 3:51 PM

(03-17-2010 2:09 PM)petrucci77 Wrote:  ... We've got a similar system in Germany since many decades and it has proved to be the best system possible ...

That was my reference to the 19th century in my post above. The German system was put in place in the 1890's.


Quote:Sooo... having heard that quite a big percentage of the american citizens is against such system I'd like to know why that is? Especially seeing that the cost for the current health care system in the US is absurdely high compared to other countries like Germany (the US health care system is the one with the highest per-head cost of all countries. Here in Germany it's only half the cost).

[sarcasm]That's because we're 'Mericans, we're "special". We can't have no "socialism" here, if someone can't pay "all the traffic will bare" then they deserve to die. We got to live like the Founding Fathers did in 1789.[/sarcasm]

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03-17-2010 3:51 PM
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mark-in-dallas
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RE: Obamacare, Just say No. Virginia Did!
03-18-2010 5:26 AM

The problems with the bill are numerous: It's stacked with concessions and exemptions that Obama and his administration made to union workers, various states and special interest groups. It will NOT lower the cost of healthcare, but increase the cost instead, and the quality of that care will likely be lower than it already is.

And, the federal government does not have the authority to institute a national healthcare policy and is overstepping powers granted to it by our Consititution to force it down our throats, by claiming that the Commerce clause gives them the right to do so.

The commerce clause was inacted and intended to allow the federal government to regulate commerce between the states, not to force americans to purchase ANY product or service, and penalize them if they failed to do so.

With gun control laws they are now even trying to regulate intrastate commerce, and severral states are calling them on that as well. We're likely to see some interesting showdowns in Montana, Wyoming and Tennessee, and it just might get real interesting!

Most countries have great or at least decent healthcare systems in place, but the system Obama and Pelosi are trying to ram down our throats is not and a majority of americans do NOT want it!

Nobody changes until the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of change....
03-18-2010 5:26 AM
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Data4
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RE: Obamacare, Just say No. Virginia Did!
03-18-2010 5:39 AM

I'm a union worker and I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE that the union exemption is absolute bullshit. What makes me so special that I should be exempt on something that millions of people who aren't in a union and are experiencing the same hardships should have to bear? Granted, my union membership is a condition of employment where I work, but I'm what's referred to as a "lunchpail conservative" (i.e. a rank and file member who doesn't follow the union political agenda).

But despite my own personal feelings (and believe me, I have many on this subject!) there's the issue of the will of the governed. Poll after poll shows that between 2/3 and 3/4 of the American people are against this. This isn't about fixing a broken system. It's about a straight-up powergrab. People will say "Yeah, but Bush did this, and Bush did that, and the Bush Congress used Reconciliation, and... etc.", but two things apply here. First, Bush ain't Prez any more, and second, reconciliation has been used historically on minor things, usually when the issue was whether or not the item in debate could be afforded by the government. This is the first time it has ever been used on something that has the potential to affect each and every person in the country and over 1/6th of the national economy.

With all due respect, Petrucci, and in good-natured contrast to Mtnjim's sarcasm, this IS embryonic socialism, and it DOESN'T have a place in our Constitutional Republic.

EDIT: Oh, and Mark, about Pelosi quotes, how about the one where she said "We need to pass this bill so we can see what's in it"?
... ARE YOU SHITTING ME!?!?!
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2010 5:42 AM by Data4.)
03-18-2010 5:39 AM
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mark-in-dallas
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RE: Obamacare, Just say No. Virginia Did!
03-18-2010 6:02 AM

(03-18-2010 5:39 AM)Data4 Wrote:  Oh, and Mark, about Pelosi quotes, how about the one where she said "We need to pass this bill so we can see what's in it"?
... ARE YOU SHITTING ME!?!?!

Well, God forbid that any elected politician should bother to read what they are voting on, I mean come on it's 2309 pages and who has time to read that? Negative

But, for anyone that wants to read it, here it is: http://budget.house.gov/doc-library/FY20...on2010.PDF

Attempting to "deem" the Health Care bill passed when it has not actually been voted on is not Constitutional. Article 1, Section 7:

And, here's how laws are SUPPOSED to be passed:

Quote:
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it becomes a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approves he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.

This is the black-letter law of the land.

There are millions of Americans who are extraordinarily pissed off right now.

Nobody changes until the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of change....
03-18-2010 6:02 AM
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mark-in-dallas
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RE: Obamacare, Just say No. Virginia Did!
03-18-2010 6:50 AM

(03-17-2010 2:09 PM)petrucci77 Wrote:  We've got a similar system in Germany since many decades and it has proved to be the best system possible - the people who have much pay more than the people with less income (for workless people the state pays the money) so good health care is provided to all german citizens regardless of their income.

That's something that I have a problem with, in that if I choose to work my ass off to generate a good income, I am forced to help pay the bills of someone less fortunate.

If those that are less fortunate worked as hard as the ones who are more successful, then I'd probably be ok with the concept. But, in many cases it just doesn't work that way.

Why should I have to help pay for healthcare for someone who is lazy and not willing to put any effort into education, employment, or bettering themself?

Why should I have to help pay for healthcare for a drug addict, or those that choose to live an unhealthy lifestyle?

Don't get me wrong, I am willing to help those that want to help themselves, but I am NOT willing to help someone who's lazy or doesn't want to work.

Roosevelt's "New Deal" and the "Welfare Act" were supposed to lift all americans out of poverty in one generation.

It didn't quite work that way, and the system proved to be a huge burden:

Minorities found that they could live better on welfare and by having baby after baby, than they could by getting jobs and actually working.

Teenage girls learned that they could unshackle themselves from their parents and get out on their own by getting pregnant and getting on welfare.

Back in the early 90's I had a friend who was Iranian, and he told me of advertisements that were being run on Iranian TV and Radio stations offering to show how to get relatives into the U.S. and on welfare, so that they could live better than they ever could in Iran.

Socialism is a great concept, if all things were equal, but unfortunately they are not, and a number of citizens will choose to take advantage of the system and berden those that shoose to be successful.

In America, the percentage is pretty high.

Here is a copy of an e-mail I received that was supposedly written by an Emergency Room Doctor in Florida:

Quote:"I live and work in a state overrun with illegals. They make more money having kids than we earn working full-time. Today I had a 25-year old with 8 kids - that's right 8; all illegal anchor babies and she had the nicest nails, cell phone, hand bag, clothing, etc. She makes about $1,500 monthly for each; you do the math. I used to say, "We are the dumbest nation on earth." Now I must say and sadly admit: WE are the dumbest people on earth (that includes ME) for we elected the idiot idealogues who have passed the bills that allow this. Sorry, but we need a revolution. Vote them all out in 2010.

Nobody changes until the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of change....
03-18-2010 6:50 AM
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petrucci77
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RE: Obamacare, Just say No. Virginia Did!
03-18-2010 2:47 PM

(03-18-2010 5:39 AM)Data4 Wrote:  With all due respect, Petrucci, and in good-natured contrast to Mtnjim's sarcasm, this IS embryonic socialism, and it DOESN'T have a place in our Constitutional Republic.

I know, a lot of americans see anything slightly socialistic as the work of the devil. Mrgreen Like I said, I AM a socialist at heart - so does that make me diabolic? Diablo

@Mark: I won't really comment on that, simply because I can't. I've heard these reasonings a lot of times before from germans (btw, you sound exactly as one of the FDP guys that are now part of our government (fortunately they are working pretty hard at destructing themselves ;)). I've never understood it and won't understand it this time any better. So, I'm just saying thank you for the explanation. Mrgreen

All these arguments, that a lot of the german politicians are bring up just like you (people are mostly just being lazy, if they'd push themselves more they'd easily get a decent job, yadda yadda) is proven to be complete bullshit - for Germany! But I don't know about the american society (never been there or even lived there for a while, so I can't judge if your words are actually true)...
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2010 2:58 PM by petrucci77.)
03-18-2010 2:47 PM
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Mtnjim
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RE: Obamacare, Just say No. Virginia Did!
03-18-2010 3:30 PM

(03-18-2010 2:47 PM)petrucci77 Wrote:  ...All these arguments, that a lot of the german politicians are bring up just like you (people are mostly just being lazy, if they'd push themselves more they'd easily get a decent job, yadda yadda) is proven to be complete bullshit - for Germany! But I don't know about the american society (never been there or even lived there for a while, so I can't judge if your words are actually true)...

You understand American society better than you think. Eek

To stay young requires unceasing cultivation of the ability to unlearn old falsehoods.
---Lazerous Long
03-18-2010 3:30 PM
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