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Luteinizing hormone: the link between sex and the sense of smell (18 years later)
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jvkohl
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Post: #11
RE: Luteinizing hormone: the link between sex and the sense of smell (18 years later)
12-16-2009 6:57 PM

I first looked at information about kisspeptin and regulation of reproductive hormones at the (2008) Society for Neuroscience conference in Washington DC. Subsequently, there seems to have been an explosion of research publications that tell more about what it does (and how it does it in different species). Ultimately, it seems that its importance may lie in how it influences gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH), which is the hormone directly effected by mammalian pheromones, including human pheromones.

James V. Kohl

scentoferos.com

 

(12-16-2009 11:48 AM)Xiphoid Wrote:  That's not a stupid question Smile Kisspeptin is a relatively new discovery. It's a sex hormone, found in both men & women. It's involved in initiating puberty (mainly in females)& induces increases in LH & FSH. In the UK they have begun using it to kick-start sex hormone production & ovulation as part of treatment for women with low fertility.

12-16-2009 6:57 PM
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Niatalya
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Post: #12
RE: Luteinizing hormone: the link between sex and the sense of smell (18 years later)
12-16-2009 7:24 PM

http://www.kisspeptin.org/

There's a whole treasure trove of Pubmed articles and info about it here.

12-16-2009 7:24 PM
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jvkohl
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Post: #13
RE: Luteinizing hormone: the link between sex and the sense of smell (18 years later)
12-16-2009 7:49 PM

One of the more important articles I've read is in press at Hormones and Behavior. Advance viewing is a benefit of my Society for Behavioral Neuroendocrinology membership.

Effects of aromatase mutation (ArKO) on the sexual differentiation of kisspeptin neuronal numbers and their activation by same versus opposite sex urinary pheromones. Julie Bakker, Sylvie Pierman and David González-Martínez

Also of interest may be that I met Julie Bakker (first author above) in 1995, when I was invited to an invitation only conference she also was invited to attend.

James V. Kohl
http://www.pheromones.com
<!-- articleText -->

(12-16-2009 7:24 PM)Niatalya Wrote:  

http://www.kisspeptin.org/

There's a whole treasure trove of Pubmed articles and info about it here.

12-16-2009 7:49 PM
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Gone with the Wind
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Post: #14
RE: Luteinizing hormone: the link between sex and the sense of smell (18 years later)
12-16-2009 11:20 PM

(12-05-2009 3:06 PM)jvkohl Wrote:  ... Men and women see the same thing; the signal is processed by a sensory system that is not sexually dimorphic. Therefore, the signal cannot be directly linked to a sexually dimorphic hormone response, and it cannot be directly linked to any behavior, let alone a behavior that is different in men and women (e.g., a sexually dimorphic behavior)...


This seems like a difficult thesis to support.

What evidence is there that "the [optical] signal is processed by a sensory system that is not sexually dimorphic"?

Also, the sexes have obvious sexually dimorphic behaviors in response to erotic magazines, red lights hung over houses of prostitution, etc. 


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12-16-2009 11:20 PM
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jvkohl
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Post: #15
RE: Luteinizing hormone: the link between sex and the sense of smell (18 years later)
12-17-2009 9:35 PM

(12-16-2009 11:20 PM)Gone with the Wind Wrote:  This seems like a difficult thesis to support.

Levels of biological organization require the social stimulus to elicit effects on gene expression in hormone-secreting nerve cells of the brain, or the stimulus cannot directly (i.e., via gene activation) influence behavior, which is hormonally driven. The required levels of biological organization can't be found in discussion of non-olfactory/pheromonal stimuli from the social environment. Most people simply jump from the stimulus to the behavior without ever realizing there must be a pathway.

(12-16-2009 11:20 PM)Gone with the Wind Wrote:  What evidence is there that "the [optical] signal is processed by a sensory system that is not sexually dimorphic"?

That's reverse logic. There's no evidence to suggest that visual stimuli are processed by a sexually dimorphic system. I use the example of food choice. Food can have the same visual appeal to males or females; a potential male or female mate would not be so likely to have the same visual appeal. I also appeal to the logic of evolution in which chemical signals are absolutely essential, when other sensory input is of little concern to species survival.

(12-16-2009 11:20 PM)Gone with the Wind Wrote:  Also, the sexes have obvious sexually dimorphic behaviors in response to erotic magazines, red lights hung over houses of prostitution, etc.

The behaviors are conditioned by exposure to olfactory/pheromonal stimuli and the effects of the exposure on hormones during a lifetime of experiences in which olfactory/pheromonal and other sensory input are paired. If experiences are taken from this "picture" --as with young children who have no erotic experience, the magazine pictures and red lights cannot have acquired value in and of themselves.

I should note that most people attest to what they think is fact: visual stimuli must be driving sex differences in behavior, when from a biological perspective this cannot be true. Perhaps the sociologists have won, and no one will ever reverse the common misconceptions derived from observations that don't have a biological basis in scientific fact.

James V. Kohl

http://www.pheromones.com

 

12-17-2009 9:35 PM
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Post: #16
RE: Luteinizing hormone: the link between sex and the sense of smell (18 years later)
12-17-2009 10:24 PM

I recall reading an article in Scientific American many years ago in which infants were put on glass and exposed to a dropoff. They were in no danger, but showed aversion from a very young age to the visual stimulus of the dropoff, and exhibited avoidant behavior.

We can't get around the fact that visual stimulus results in the firing of neurons in the brain, and once that starts happening various learned, or instinctive, behaviors can be activated. Same goes for hearing, which also involves no chemical interchange.

There is good reason to evolve optically stimulated mating behaviors. That allows us to be excited by potential partners who are upwind, far away, etc.

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12-17-2009 10:24 PM
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Diane999
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Post: #17
RE: Luteinizing hormone: the link between sex and the sense of smell (18 years later)
12-17-2009 11:58 PM

Yes, but nothing beats chemistry. Pretty boys are nice to look at, but I wouldn't trade my "bulldog" husband for a whole harem of pretty boys. Visual stimulation may be the fastest attention getter, but alone it has no staying power. Chemistry does.

Diane
12-17-2009 11:58 PM
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Post: #18
RE: Luteinizing hormone: the link between sex and the sense of smell (18 years later)
12-18-2009 12:42 AM

(12-17-2009 11:58 PM)Diane999 Wrote:  Yes, but nothing beats chemistry. Pretty boys are nice to look at, but I wouldn't trade my "bulldog" husband for a whole harem of pretty boys. Visual stimulation may be the fastest attention getter, but alone it has no staying power. Chemistry does. Diane


I'd never dispute the power of chemistry.  I'm just not quite ready to write off the whole visual and auditory realms as irrelevant to behavior.


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<p align="center">Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate. Bodhi svaha!</p>
12-18-2009 12:42 AM
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jvkohl
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Post: #19
RE: Luteinizing hormone: the link between sex and the sense of smell (18 years later)
12-18-2009 11:24 AM

(12-18-2009 12:42 AM)Gone with the Wind Wrote:  I'd never dispute the power of chemistry.  I'm just not quite ready to write off the whole visual and auditory realms as irrelevant to behavior.

Your comments exemplify why it is difficult to help others understand the primacy of olfaction as compared to other sensory input. Most people immediately "think" about non-olfactory/pheromonal input and make their assumptions based on their thoughts. They forget that my model does not include anything about what anyone thinks. Biological facts don't change!

I wrote: "The required levels of biological organization can't be found in discussion of non-olfactory/pheromonal stimuli from the social environment."

I don't include all sensory input (sunlight, artificial light, loud noises, puncture wounds, etc.) since no one has modeled the affects of all sensory input on behavior. Nevertheless, I fully understand why my behavior might change towards another person, if that person stabbed me with a knife.

As often happens with others, you bring into the discussion the importance of other known effects of non-olfactory/pheromonal stimuli (like with the infant on glass). Stating the obvious (yes, there are affects) does not discount anything about the need for a biologically based explanation of the development of personal preferences for the physical features of other people.

I hope this response does not seem harsh; it is intended only to call attention to a common errror of interpretation. Many people think I'm saying something that I'm not, because they don't understand what I am saying, and can't think any other way.

Even a researcher/colleague/friend missed my point in his review of my 2006/7 journal article/book chapter:

"Multiple studies by independent researchers leave little doubt that odor affects human mate choice, but Kohl probably grossly overstates its importance. Why postulate that humans evolved only obligate olfactory/pheromonal preferences? Isn't there likely to be useful information about mates that is better obtained through vision and touch than through smell? If so, selection would probably favor more reliable developmental patterns for visual and tactile preferences than classical conditioning to olfactory ones."

http://www.putslab.psu.edu/pdfs/puts_07_arouimag.pdf

He asks: "Isn't there likely to be...." when there is no model for such a likelihood. And there is no non-olfactory evidence for mate selection in any species. All species require the classically conditioned response to chemical/olfactory cues. I think that if there was another biologically based model for this, someone would have suggested it during the past 20+ years that I have spent developing my model.

James V. Kohl

http://www.pheromones.com

 

12-18-2009 11:24 AM
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Post: #20
RE: Luteinizing hormone: the link between sex and the sense of smell (18 years later)
12-18-2009 12:39 PM

(12-18-2009 11:24 AM)jvkohl Wrote:  ...

I hope this response does not seem harsh; it is intended only to call attention to a common errror of interpretation. Many people think I'm saying something that I'm not, because they don't understand what I am saying, and can't think any other way.

...



Not at all.  Glad to be of service.  Many folks find me primarily useful as a bad example.

You are quite fortunate in the way people misinterpret you.  For me, when many people think I'm saying something that I'm not, it's usually because I said it poorly.


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12-18-2009 12:39 PM
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