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Developing theoretical guidelines for choosing molecules to test -Project Independent
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Gone with the Wind
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Post: #1
Developing theoretical guidelines for choosing molecules to test -Project Independent
10-22-2009 7:29 PM

We should think about what biological processes would be important for another member of the same species to detect, and why. Then we should look at biological chemicals associated with that process that might become airborne and provide chemical cues of value. If the information in floating in the air it is likely that mother nature has found a way to capitalize on it.

Another approach is to consider what type of information it is valuable to signal, and see if any specialized olfactory signaling mechanisms have evolved that are independent of the biological processes they are signaling. Copulins may be signals of this nature, signaling fertility but not chemically required in the vagina for reproduction.

Tables would be useful here, but since those don't seem well supported how about a format like this:



Biological Process "“

Reason it's important "“

Possible associated signal molecules "“

Discussion "“




Here's some to start "“



Biological Process - Fight or flight response

Reason it's important "“ communicates whether an individual may be a threat or alert to danger

Possible associated signal molecules "“ adrenaline or its metabolites

Discussion "“ If the biology of the response could be further broken down then one may be able to make more subtle distinctions, say between chemicals indicating fear and those indicating preparation for aggression.



Biological Process "“ fertile period in female

Reason it's important "“ communicates whether reproductive activity is likely to be effective in producing offspring.

Possible associated signal molecules "“ chemicals associated with ovulation, chemicals associated with changes in the vaginal environment

Discussion "“ There could also be important negative information communicated, for instance by chemicals associated with menstruation that would indicate an infertile period.



Biological Process "“ age of organism

Reason it's important "“ communicates stage in lifecycle information with consequences like: too young or old to reproduce, many fertile years of reproductive ability available, etc/.

Possible associated signal molecules "“ Hormones and chemical changes associated with puberty

Discussion "“ There could also be important negative information communicated, for instance by chemicals associated with menstruation that would indicate an infertile period.



Biological Process "“ health of organism

Reason it's important "“ communicates whether it's a good investment to commit resources to the individual. A healthy individual is better able to reciprocate and thus a better investment.

Possible associated signal molecules "“ Precursor hormones like DHEA or other chemicals early in the chain indicating ability to synthesize hormones needed for optimal endocrine function. Chemicals indicating effective functioning of digestive, circulatory and nervous systems could also be important in the perception of health.

Discussion "“ There could also be important negative information communicated, for instance markers of various disease states. There could be value in inhibiting or disguising these markers, for instance in diabetics. Inhibiting communication of disease states could make unhealthy individuals more attractive and increase their pleasure in socialization.

 



I encourage you to put up others, or grab ones I've put up and riff on them. Obviously those skeletons need subprocesses and chemicals associated with them. We may also want to consider how volitile the molecules are, how long lived, and mechanisims by which they could become airborne. (Lickable communication molecules are a whole 'nother subject.)

 

Gone with the Wind

<p align="center">Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate. Bodhi svaha!</p>
(This post was last modified: 10-23-2009 7:31 AM by Gone with the Wind.)
10-22-2009 7:29 PM
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Diane999
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Post: #2
RE: Developing theoretical guidelines for choosing molecules to test
10-22-2009 7:39 PM

Stess steroids are corticosteroids. They are released in the body only during periods of prolonged or intense stress. Some of these, if overused or overstimulated, can cause neuronal loss.

Before anyone starts testing any of the fight or flight pheromones literature searches need to be done to ensure that anything used for testing is safe.

That one I'm not budging on.

Diane
(This post was last modified: 10-22-2009 7:43 PM by Diane999.)
10-22-2009 7:39 PM
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Post: #3
RE: Developing theoretical guidelines for choosing molecules to test
10-22-2009 8:48 PM

(10-22-2009 7:39 PM)Diane999 Wrote:  Before anyone starts testing any of the fight or flight pheromones literature searches need to be done to ensure that anything used for testing is safe.

That one I'm not budging on.

Very good point that it is in everyone's best interest for people not to get hurt.

Just so I'm on the right page here, is discussion in this forum limited to chemicals you approve to be associated with your project, or deemed to be safe by you?

There are known feedback loops between growth and atrophy in various sections of the brain and various corticosteroids circulating in the blood. It's quite a jump to infer danger would be present from smelling minute doses of such a molecule. Given the state of olfactory research, we all know definitive studies on the safety of various smells have not been done. We also know that very few smells are lethal, nitric acid fumes and such being excepted.

We should consider possibilities for skin absorbtion and possible entry of chemicals into the bloodstream. This goes for any of the products. Possible negative effects should be considered. However, it is probably not necessary to extrapolate extreem danger from blood concentrations that are far less than those involved in the biological processes themselves.

Gone with the Wind

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10-22-2009 8:48 PM
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Post: #4
RE: Developing theoretical guidelines for choosing molecules to test
10-22-2009 9:01 PM

I like where this thread is headed, unfortunately I lack the knowledge to contribute. I'll keep on reading though.

"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma... which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary."
-Steve Jobs
10-22-2009 9:01 PM
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Post: #5
RE: Developing theoretical guidelines for choosing molecules to test
10-22-2009 9:48 PM

(10-22-2009 8:48 PM)Gone with the Wind Wrote:  Very good point that it is in everyone's best interest for people not to get hurt.

Just so I'm on the right page here, is discussion in this forum limited to chemicals you approve to be associated with your project, or deemed to be safe by you?

There are known feedback loops between growth and atrophy in various sections of the brain and various corticosteroids circulating in the blood. It's quite a jump to infer danger would be present from smelling minute doses of such a molecule. Given the state of olfactory research, we all know definitive studies on the safety of various smells have not been done. We also know that very few smells are lethal, nitric acid fumes and such being excepted.

We should consider possibilities for skin absorbtion and possible entry of chemicals into the bloodstream. This goes for any of the products. Possible negative effects should be considered. However, it is probably not necessary to extrapolate extreem danger from blood concentrations that are far less than those involved in the biological processes themselves.

I suppose if our forum project of identifying functional pheromones as opposed to AD's forum's use of "mystery" molecules, is what you were refering to in your post title, then I think it would be a good idea to limit ourselves to molecules that we will be able to use as pheromones. Isn't that what the title says?

If, on the other hand you are discussing pheromones in general, those that can be used and those that can't, then the answer is no.

About your argument, re: extreme danger... any danger is too much danger when you are talking about putting something in a tube that someone could potentially overuse, and in my experience with some of the "mystery" chemicals, I don't feel some of them are safe at all to use if you have a heart condition or are prone to PTSD reactions. Now that is just my opinion, but also my reaction. P84, P100, P107 are three I can name off the top of my head that I would never use again at any concentration because my own physical reactions were so alarming.

Diane
(This post was last modified: 10-22-2009 9:51 PM by Diane999.)
10-22-2009 9:48 PM
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Post: #6
RE: Developing theoretical guidelines for choosing molecules to test
10-22-2009 9:57 PM

My initial (possibly wrong) impression was that this board was for the open discussion of pheromones. We seem to share a common interest in that. Although I may or may not participate in a "forum project" my post was intended to stimulate discussion amongst knowledgable individuals interested in testing. I wasn't seeking to integrate within any particular project or an authoritarian control structure.

Just hoping to discuss ideas and possibilities with friends.

Gone with the Wind

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10-22-2009 9:57 PM
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Post: #7
RE: Developing theoretical guidelines for choosing molecules to test
10-22-2009 11:22 PM

(10-22-2009 9:57 PM)Gone with the Wind Wrote:  My initial (possibly wrong) impression was that this board was for the open discussion of pheromones. We seem to share a common interest in that. Although I may or may not participate in a "forum project" my post was intended to stimulate discussion amongst knowledgable individuals interested in testing. I wasn't seeking to integrate within any particular project or an authoritarian control structure.

Just hoping to discuss ideas and possibilities with friends.

Whoa there GWTW! You are aware we are doing this project, are you not? From the title to this thread I assumed that was what you were referring to. That has nothing to do with authoritarianism as much as to do with not confusing ME with too much discussion of stuff we aren't going to test.

If you aren't interested in focusing on that project or being part of it, so be it, but please don't muddy the waters with unfounded accusations before we have even begun.

After all, I'm the one who is going to be choosing the test molecules, doing all the legwork, doing all the dilutions, etc, and the one who will be held liable if anything bad goes wrong.

So, if you feel I should have all the responsibility here but should have no authority, because it is somehow personally offensive to you, well sorry you feel that way, but that's how it is.

Diane
(This post was last modified: 10-22-2009 11:28 PM by Diane999.)
10-22-2009 11:22 PM
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Post: #8
RE: Developing theoretical guidelines for choosing molecules to test
10-23-2009 3:34 AM

Whew Back up here.........................


Pherotruth is about being able to discuss anything you want to. That is the first and foremost priority. Just because GW wants to explore and discuss dosnt mean those molecules have to be tested. I understand Diane that you do not want to supply stress molecules That is fine, do what your comfortable with but I do not see the harm in talking about it. Thats what is great about forums. They have lots of threads so if your not interested in a subject you do not have to read that thread.


GW talk about what ever you like. Maybe the stress molecules discussions can have there own thread.

Diane you choose what ever molecules you feel are safe for us to test. The waters wont get muddied because they will be coded at first anyways and most likely have individual threads.


Tisha
10-23-2009 3:34 AM
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Post: #9
RE: Developing theoretical guidelines for choosing molecules to test
10-23-2009 5:09 AM

(10-23-2009 3:34 AM)Tisha Wrote:  Whew Back up here.........................


Pherotruth is about being able to discuss anything you want to. That is the first and foremost priority. Just because GW wants to explore and discuss dosnt mean those molecules have to be tested. I understand Diane that you do not want to supply stress molecules That is fine, do what your comfortable with but I do not see the harm in talking about it. Thats what is great about forums. They have lots of threads so if your not interested in a subject you do not have to read that thread.


GW talk about what ever you like. Maybe the stress molecules discussions can have there own thread.

Diane you choose what ever molecules you feel are safe for us to test. The waters wont get muddied because they will be coded at first anyways and most likely have individual threads.


Tisha

Of course I agree with you, Tisha. That is what I said in my second reply to him when I asked him directly if this was about the project or not. As I have said numerous times, I thought he was talking about the project.

My second response is in response to his comment about authoritarianism.

I'm backing away from this thread now. As I said, if this thread is purely about theoretical ideas without regard to the project then of course I personally have no objections to anything being discussed. And even if this is regarding the project my only real objection is that going down this road will be so very time and energy consuming, I won't be able to contribute to it and do any actual work.

I've just spent the better part of 24 hours doing literature searches on potentials for the project and trying to track down a couple of molecules I didn't have access to... so I'm tired.

I obviously have no business being on this particular thread at all and I think for the time being I'll stick to the locked forum that was set up for the project, around discussing potential pheromone molecules, wherever that is if I can find it.

Damn, I thought this was it. Oh, it is! I started a new thread.

Diane
(This post was last modified: 10-23-2009 6:20 AM by Diane999.)
10-23-2009 5:09 AM
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Post: #10
RE: Developing theoretical guidelines for choosing molecules to test
10-23-2009 7:23 AM

Tisha,

Thanks for throwing a bit of oil on the waters.

Dianne,

(10-23-2009 5:09 AM)Diane999 Wrote:  ...I'm backing away from this thread now. As I said, if this thread is purely about theoretical ideas without regard to the project then of course I personally have no objections to anything being discussed.

Indeed, what you suggest in the quote above was my intent. When I referred to testing I was referring to what many of us choose to do individually, not necessarrily anything connected with what you supply or endorse. I see now that this was misleading, given the context of what was being discussed on other threads. You should only do what you are comfortable with. I have received numerous requessts to ship or sell various items, which I have declined to do because I did not feel comfortable doing so. I would not even think of trying to coerce you into doing something you are not comfortable with or did not want to devote the effort to. Any perception that I was trying to coerce is most probably due to my poor communication skills.

I still feel this thread is valuable, and hopefully some people will still be willing to speculate on the high-level processes associated with communication molecules. I feel it is worth exploring at least a bit. If you're not too irritated to engage you are welcome to participate also. I'll start another thread on toxicology where we can explore some potential dangers without shutting down communications on molecules with potential pheromone properties.



(10-23-2009 5:09 AM)Diane999 Wrote:  ...I think for the time being I'll stick to the locked forum that was set up for the project, around discussing potential pheromone molecules...

I believe I did put this thread in the locked forum. Is there more than one? Or did I accidentally put it in a public access area? If I did, moderators please move it to a protected location.

Also, if I am misusing a forum that was set up for a specific project instead of just secure communication in general, moderators please let me know.

Gone with the Wind

<p align="center">Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate. Bodhi svaha!</p>
10-23-2009 7:23 AM
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