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Conversation taken from " OMG *horror*
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Diane999
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Post: #21
RE: OH MY GOD *horror*
01-18-2010 8:02 PM

(01-18-2010 6:35 AM)Tisha Wrote:  LOL I know that Diane that's why I said it was silly. I dont know why it bugged me it just did and I figured if I told you my feelings about it (as silly as they were) it would stop bugging me and it did.
Diane Wrote:Not every ovulating female is jumped by a sex crazed man, so I'm wondering why that expectation is there for my copulins? And I'm wondering why this has become the basis for declaring that they don't work. They do work, just not as was expected.
I gotta say I never met a ovulating women who has any of those self effects that have been reported. Feelings of euphoria, increased energy, (I usually get that a few days before my period not when ovulating) decreased anxiety, swelling of the labia , lowing of blood pressure, angina relief ?? Why are these a basis for saying they work ?
Quote:Dogs and Cats and Apes go into heat when they ovulate. Women do not go into heat.
I agree women do not go into heat like animals do. But science again has indicated that humans do signal most likely chemically during ovulation we just dont go into Estrous. Women do however display some of the self effects with your product that animals would get during ovulation which is one of the reasons why I questioned behavior changes is my report thread. When animals ovulate they go into estrous which is primarily a visual signal Its a behavior change due to the way ovulation makes them feel. This is not a scientific paper but it has been published I just cant find the original.......... http://www.medicine.org/profiles/blogs/d...-into-heat http://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewco...th_honproj We have come a ways scientifically with the study of copulins since the above paper was written but it has some interesting points. A lot of the self effect you indicated with your product would suggest your natural copulin formula is putting some people in a sort of natural state of heat. I haven't experienced any of these indicators myself with it though. Other copulin formulas dont have self effects other then perhaps feeling more feminine. They just signal on the olfactory level not by behavioral changes in the females. Its a interesting subject..................... anywhooo................ I think that is the key word here (work) and it is what has us stumbling over this whole subject. We look at work as they are doing what they have always done in the commercial copulin world. Your looking at what they do medically and while in the act of intimacy. No one buys any pheromones for medical reasons they buy them for attraction and no not everyone will know this when they buy yours. Sure your friends know, the forum members know but what about women who buy them expecting to get the classic copulin effect. Yes they may work for intimate situations but the reason most women by them is to get them to that intimate situation. You have mentioned ....... I agree to a degree they are intimate and when in a crowded room at a distance they are not going to do much no matter what brand your wearing. Copulins do sexually attract men when worn at a reasonable distance though. Astrid Jutte even indicated that they improve males perception of a woman's attractiveness. Sure it was just one test but I believe I have seen it. Not all of my friends are what men would consider pretty and I have had them test them. I agree with you though that it is a perception of the word "work" Its means something different to you then it does to us.

Maybe we should make another thread to continue this conversation?  I think all these points are really good and I'd love to explore all this with you more.

Diane

(This post was last modified: 01-18-2010 8:03 PM by Diane999.)
01-18-2010 8:02 PM
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terry0400-40
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Post: #22
RE: OH MY GOD *horror*
01-19-2010 12:28 AM

Quote:

I gotta say I never met a ovulating women who has any of those self effects that have been reported. Feelings of euphoria, increased energy, (I usually get that a few days before my period not when ovulating) decreased anxiety, swelling of the labia , lowing of blood pressure, angina relief ?? Why are these a basis for saying they work ? [QUOTE]Dogs and Cats and Apes go into heat when they ovulate. Women do not go into heat.



 
Quote:I agree women do not go into heat like animals do. But science again has indicated that humans do signal most likely chemically during ovulation we just dont go into Estrous. Women do however display some of the self effects with your product that animals would get during ovulation which is one of the reasons why I questioned behavior changes is my report thread. When animals ovulate they go into estrous which is primarily a visual signal Its a behavior change due to the way ovulation makes them feel. This is not a scientific paper but it has been published I just cant find the original.......... http://www.medicine.org/profiles/blogs/d...-into-heat http://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewco...th_honproj We have come a ways scientifically with the study of copulins since the above paper was written but it has some interesting points. A lot of the self effect you indicated with your product would suggest your natural copulin formula is putting some people in a sort of natural state of heat. I haven't experienced any of these indicators myself with it though. Other copulin formulas dont have self effects other then perhaps feeling more feminine. They just signal on the olfactory level not by behavioral changes in the females. Its a interesting subject..................... anywhooo................ I think that is the key word here (work) and it is what has us stumbling over this whole subject. We look at work as they are doing what they have always done in the commercial copulin world. Your looking at what they do medically and while in the act of intimacy. No one buys any pheromones for medical reasons they buy them for attraction and no not everyone will know this when they buy yours. Sure your friends know, the forum members know but what about women who buy them expecting to get the classic copulin effect. Yes they may work for intimate situations but the reason most women by them is to get them to that intimate situation. You have mentioned ....... I agree to a degree they are intimate and when in a crowded room at a distance they are not going to do much no matter what brand your wearing. Copulins do sexually attract men when worn at a reasonable distance though. Astrid Jutte even indicated that they improve males perception of a woman's attractiveness. Sure it was just one test but I believe I have seen it. Not all of my friends are what men would consider pretty and I have had them test them. I agree with you though that it is a perception of the word "work" Its means something different to you then it does to us.

Quote:Maybe we should make another thread to continue this conversation?  I think all these points are really good and I'd love to explore all this with you more. Diane

That is a good suggestion Diane, if there were another thread created to continue on with this facinating study i certainly would be looking in to reveiw it and learn more on the subject, and maby once in awhile also comment on any hands on observations i may have experienced from applying what i have learned from it all. So a big thanks for going the extra mile and showing us some science that is worthy of credit....


[Image: PcNbWD0.jpg?2]
My thread >
http://pherotruth.com/Thread-Sex-pills-a...nt-reviews
01-19-2010 12:28 AM
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Tisha
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Post: #23
RE: Conversation taken from " OMG *horror*
01-19-2010 7:42 AM

Quote:I'm often just playing devil's advocate here. But also trying to shed some light on possible mechanisms of action by talking about the scientific information that is known about a substance.


 Yes you do Diane and I am glad you said it and not me. Big Grin

 Since I split the thread I thought I would bring up that subject I was referring to in one of my above posts that I have been wanting to mention about "scientific evidence" and since Terri mentioned this in reference to posts he thought Diane made    >>>>>>>>>>>>
Terri Wrote:So a big thanks for going the extra mile and showing us some science that is worthy of credit....


>>>>>>>>>> Implying that everything else reported or discussed is not worthy of credit, this is a good a place as any.

 Anywhoooo...........................

I often find that you have three groups of people who participate in pheromone forums. The scientific driven. The Marketers and The Pheromone users.


I know many put a lot of weight behind all of the scientific evidence that has been published. its what Diane based her formula on. We all find it interesting but as its been proven countless times science is often wrong. Just look at the VNO debate which many scientists have supported and many did not such as JVKohl. Through exploration they discovered that in fact the VNO is not functional in humans. The study of copulins is far from being complete, hence you will find many opposing studies like the ones Di posted all by creditable scientists who make there own conclusions. We can debate what science has published until we are blue in the face and still not reach the truth on this subject. Simply because scientifically it has not been proven yet.
Scientists motive is not always finding the truth but being the first to publish it.

 The marketers will use whatever scientific evidence published that will influence the sale of their products. They can easily find some published evidence supporting their view one way or another thereby influencing the sale of their products. They care little about the truth but about the sale of their product. If someone reports a less then favorable review they will shove what ever evidence they can find down peoples throat in a attempt to discredit them.


The users, those who spend there money and use the products. They have nothing to gain from saying they work or they dont work. ( I am not referring to affiliate marketers who claim to have used products and promote them on forums) They share there experiences with like minded people in hopes of finding the truth. They weigh and consider what the other two groups have presented and give there own findings and opinions. These are the people I find creditable. Sure even in this group you will find your user who has opposing opinions on products but they do not discredit others opinions.

 I do not want to see users afraid to report or even mention a product because they know they will have to constantly defend themselves against science and marketers. This is what I liked the most about this forum set up when Mark and Bella approached me to become a admin. It was more about reporting the truth and the users sharing information freely without feeling pressured or having to defend themselves because they were in a forum affiliated with a store.


I know where I fall in these groups, I am not a scientist nor a marketer, even when I was the moderator and coach over at AD I did my best to take a unbiased view which I proved more then once by reporting on the lack of copulins, on censoring and on the banning of other companies for no good reason. I even reported quite a few products didnt work for me there. Never did I have to defend my credibility until that last time when I posted about the lack of copulins in the consumer products. Funny thing is I didnt have to defend myself to Jasmin or Michael, they knew I was creditable and was telling the truth. In that thread I had to defend myself against Dianes accusations. I can already see where these posts are headed and I dont wish throw around scientific arguments to defend my personal experience with her product.  I am starting to get the feeling this will always be the case when it comes to Her and I.   

So Diane....... in the future when I report on a product or give my opinion on one whether its yours, Androtics, Essence of Woman or otherwise I would appreciate the same consideration you have given other users who reported their opinions and have reported results or lack of results with something.

If you want to discuss the science of pheromones that is fine to, I know I always welcome the scientific view and participate in those discussions when I feel I have something to give. There is a difference in sharing scientific evidence in a effort to shed some light and sharing scientific evidence to try to discredit someones experience with your product.


I would once again like to apologize to Selva for hijacking her thread. Its not Diane's fault or Terri's but mine as I started the conversation that lead to this portion of the thread. Conversations just tend to flow off topic sometimes.

Tisha

01-19-2010 7:42 AM
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Xiphoid
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Post: #24
RE: OH MY GOD *horror*
01-19-2010 1:52 PM

(01-18-2010 7:14 PM)Bella Wrote:  

Once again, this thread has been highjacked. This is the last time. The high jacking of threads will stop even if we have to have an admin stay on these boards 24/7 to ensure it. Again it's not only disrespectful, to Selva, it's disrespectful to the rest of the members as well.
 
From this moment forward, we WILL delete those highjacking posts. Freedom of speech on this forum does not mean anyone is permitted to highjack threads in the guise of being  a "contributing member" for self-serving purposes. That party is over. Consider it a warning to anyone who seriously side tracks threads.
 
Take note, the next time we see a thread being highjacked, in this manner, the highjacking posts WILL be deleted. We don't care WHO started it. This is not open for discussion.
 
 


Bella, I'm not trying to argue with you, or the forum rule about thread hijacking, it IS annoying when threads go off on tangents... But, rather than deleting the posts that went off on a tangent, could the thread not be split in two instead to allow for both discussions to continue?

ETA: Whoops... I didn't notice the thread had already been split... My bad! :red face:
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2010 1:54 PM by Xiphoid.)
01-19-2010 1:52 PM
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mark-in-dallas
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Post: #25
RE: Conversation taken from " OMG *horror*
01-19-2010 2:05 PM

I'll respond to that Xiph. This thread was split and the posts moved, to allow for the continuation of the conversation, as it had already thrown the thread completely off track, dessimated the spirit of Selva's original post and essentailly became it's own thread.

Bella was talking about any future threads which are highjacked, and deleting the initial highjacking posting, before it's had a chance to run the conversation off course and ruin the thread.

And I'm in agreement with Bella on this.

Nobody changes until the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of change....
01-19-2010 2:05 PM
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Diane999
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Post: #26
RE: Conversation taken from " OMG *horror*
01-19-2010 5:05 PM

Oh, thank you, Tisha.  I thought about PMing you last night to ask if you could do this, but I didn't because I know how much work you already have here at your 2nd job.  And I didn't want to add to the burden.

Maybe it isn't too apparent in my writing back and forth with you, but I thoroughly enjoy our debates.  You take me to places I hadn't considered.

To me our debates are like this:

I get very focused (you know that... lol), and you widen my view out again. Your conversations with me are like fertilizer for my mind (in a very good way).  You remind me of things I have forgotten and give me new areas to explore, new ways to look at things, and new ways to think about things.

So, in case it gets lost in the shuffle again... thank you!

Mark... same goes for you.


Quote:So Diane....... in the future when I report on a product or give my opinion on one whether its yours, Androtics, Essence of Woman (Essence of Woman ) or otherwise I would appreciate the same consideration you have given other users who reported their opinions and have reported results or lack of results with something.

If you want to discuss the science of pheromones that is fine to, I know I always welcome the scientific view and participate in those discussions when I feel I have something to give. There is a difference in sharing scientific evidence in a effort to shed some light and sharing scientific evidence to try to discredit someones experience with your product. --Tisha

I should have PM'd you instead of posting anything in the open forum. Or I should have asked you to take your comments regarding my product to my review page so we could be free to discuss it.

I wasn't trying to discredit your reports, or promote my product above Essence of Woman , as some have accused me of.

It is difficult to offer a product for sale and at the same time try to clarify what the effects really are -- when it is assumed and continually promoted that the baseline for how it "should" work is another product. That is especially the case when users of the other product insist that my product "should" work that way.

This is the only message I was trying to get across...

Essence of Woman is its own product with its own design, its own added scent elements.

My copulin product is just a combination of C2- to C5 fatty acids formerly identified as "copulins," in the same range of ratios of F.A.s as found in ovulating women who are not on birth control pills and who were termed as copulin "producers," with or without fragrance, in oil or alcohol.

I have never told anyone to stop using Essence of Woman , and if that product works for you in the way you want it to, you should continue using it.

If for any reason you can't use Essence of Woman or don't like the product, or it doesn't work for you, use something else.

If my copulins work for you and give you effects that you want, use it. If for any reason you can't use my copulins or don't like the product, or it doesn't work for you, use something else.

A lot of people like Essence of Woman . A lot of people hate it. It is a love or hate relationship with nothing in the middle. For a long time there were very few alternatives if you were unfortunate enough to fall into the second group.

I have an alternative for that second group of people. Does that mean I want you to stop using Essence of Woman if it works for you? NO!

But I also think people who have struggled with Essence of Woman and haven't been able to make it work for them shouldn't be made to feel inferior or as somehow being mislead or just experiencing placebo when they find that my copulins work for them.

And I hope that is clearer and less offending with regard to my intent of replying to your post.

Diane
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2010 5:54 PM by Diane999.)
01-19-2010 5:05 PM
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Tisha
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Post: #27
RE: Conversation taken from " OMG *horror*
01-20-2010 7:34 AM

Diane Wrote:Essence of Woman (Essence of Woman ) is its own product with its own design, its own added scent elements. My copulin product is just a combination of C2- to C5 fatty acids formerly identified as "copulins," in the same range of ratios of F.A.s as found in ovulating women who are not on birth control pills and who were termed as copulin "producers," with or without fragrance, in oil or alcohol.

 I have never told anyone to stop using Essence of Woman (Essence of Woman ), and if that product works for you in the way you want it to, you should continue using it.

If for any reason you can't use Essence of Woman (Essence of Woman ) or don't like the product, or it doesn't work for you, use something else. If my copulins work for you and give you effects that you want, use it.

If for any reason you can't use my copulins or don't like the product, or it doesn't work for you, use something else. A lot of people like Essence of Woman (Essence of Woman ). A lot of people hate it. It is a love or hate relationship with nothing in the middle. For a long time there were very few alternatives if you were unfortunate enough to fall into the second group.

I have an alternative for that second group of people. Does that mean I want you to stop using Essence of Woman (Essence of Woman ) if it works for you? NO!

But I also think people who have struggled with Essence of Woman (Essence of Woman ) and haven't been able to make it work for them shouldn't be made to feel inferior or as somehow being mislead or just experiencing placebo when they find that my copulins work for them.


Diane thank you for just plainly stating your view. See how clear that is when you leave your ego out of it and just use plain English instead of throwing scientific jargon at me all the time. ;) Its not that I dont love talking science with you. I learn alot and I enjoy it but there is a time and place for it. I must admit a lot of it does go over my head at times, I am a postal worker and a life coach its my brother who is the scientist LOL.

I dont blame you for the thread going off track, I am just as much responsible for it.

If you look back at all my reports and my above posts I repeatedly say that I am not telling people to not use your product. In my reports I kept taking the blame for them not working for me. I am sorry if this is what you felt, maybe you didnt see those parts of my posts but I cant state it any more plainly then that. If you look at where I mentioned placebo it was in the section of my report where we were discussing all the possibilities as to why my reaction was different then others. We both know enough about science to always consider that with any product we use. Just in case you missed it, in my above posts I stated.

Tisha post 1 Wrote:Terri I am glad you like Diane's copulins, However the result of a male wearing them is far different then the result of a female wearing them when you take self effects out of the equation. You can not give someone copulins to wear and gage how you feel when they wear them. You already know what they are supposed to do and knowing that influences your own response. But I am glad you brought this question up because it gives me a chance to address certain things that have been bothering me. No one is saying Diane's copulins are bad. No one is saying not to buy her products. I look forward to trying some more of her mixes soon myself as soon as my taxes are done and I know we will be OK money wise to start spending some again. The truth is some of the female members are seeing results but some are not. Some are just not seeing the same results they are used to from copulins which is a point Diane and I discussed in my review. However.......This can also be said by some users of Essence of Woman (Essence of Woman ) as well. It dosent work for every single user. While Diane's copulin product is definitely superior in smell and self effects its not superior in effects on our targets right now. At least not for myself or the few others who contacted me after I reported. I stress the words "right now" because I am still doing testing. This is why there is a panic over Essence of Woman (Essence of Woman ). It may stink but it gets the job done for a majority of the women who use it.


 I have also repeatedly said and I will say it again if Diane's product is working for you by all means use it. Just as you feel that people should not be made to feel inferior because they like and use your product, people who use Essence of Woman should not be made to feel inferior or told its fecal matter just because you dont have success with it. A great deal of women use Essence of Woman and love it not only from Love scent but from Love Potions. I have to admit I may be sensitive to people putting Essence of Woman down because I just spent the last two years defending it to Jasmin over at Androtics.

Diane Wrote:It is difficult to offer a product for sale and at the same time try to clarify what the effects really are -- when it is assumed and continually promoted that the baseline for how it "should" work is another product. That is especially the case when users of the other product insist that my product "should" work that way.



I agree it is hard. Its hard for a person selling products to participate in a forum and try to find balance between promoting and letting the members freely give their opinions without defending yourself against those opinions. This is why you rarely see Bruce Jasmin or Mara posting as much as the general population. Its hard not to take it personally when they give negative feedback.

Its also hard for us as admin to maintain the integrity and vision we have for this forum not being a promotion vehicle for any one company. Sometimes we have to make some hard decisions. You didnt have a company when you joined here and this is new to us and we are adjusting to.

You gotta remember, especially if your going to go into this business, for any product in the world your gonna have people who like it and people who dont. Don't take it personally, its not a reflection of you.

I am glad we had this talk, your probably right and it should have been done by privately but its started here and the members have participated so we may as well finish it here and let them see it come to a close. I used to hate when they made us delete threads right in the middle of something over at AD and the people who read it never got to see the end. Its like reading half a good book LOL


Tisha

01-20-2010 7:34 AM
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