Hello There, Guest! Register

Or login with facebook connect Facebook, or Windows Live

Login or Register to remove all advertising



1 user browsing this thread: (0 members, and 1 guest).

Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Civetone and muscone as putatives?
Author Message
wiserd
Offline
I'm so meta, even this acronym




Joined: Nov 2011
Sex: Male
Posts: 1,390

Reputation: 1390
Rep Post

Thanks Given: 1480
Thanks received:
1324 thanks in 676 posts



Post: #1
Civetone and muscone as putatives?
06-12-2012 6:45 PM

I was curious if anyone had ever tested civetone or muscone for pheromonal properties since they have such ancient uses as perfume ingredients.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civetone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscone

I'm sure someone must have...

[Image: Example.jpg]
06-12-2012 6:45 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Thanks given by idontknow, dexter
Login or register to remove all advertising

wiserd
Offline
I'm so meta, even this acronym




Joined: Nov 2011
Sex: Male
Posts: 1,390

Reputation: 1390
Rep Post

Thanks Given: 1480
Thanks received:
1324 thanks in 676 posts



Post: #2
RE: Civetone and muscone as putatives?
06-27-2012 12:12 PM

(06-12-2012 6:45 PM)wiserd Wrote:  I was curious if anyone had ever tested civetone or muscone for pheromonal properties since they have such ancient uses as perfume ingredients.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civetone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscone

I'm sure someone must have...

Internally, muscone has a pharmacological effect as a pain killer and anti-inflammatory.

Quote: Muscone reportedly relieves pain and suppresses inflammation.

Our findings suggest muscone is a promising agent for treating intervertebral disc degeneration through its antiinflammatory effects.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19763723

Quote:Musk has been traditionally used in Chinese medicine as the main ingredient of many formulations for the treatment of chest pain and angina pectoris.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21856397

Basenotes had a page on civetone

Quote:i bought Civet HX from Hejserik and it's very nice and cheap.

[Image: Example.jpg]
06-27-2012 12:12 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
dexter
Offline
SPICE UP THE LTR's




Joined: Jul 2011
Sex: Male
Posts: 490

Reputation: 828
Rep Post

Thanks Given: 150
Thanks received:
557 thanks in 253 posts



Post: #3
Information RE: Civetone and muscone as putatives?
06-27-2012 3:25 PM

(06-12-2012 6:45 PM)wiserd Wrote:  I was curious if anyone had ever tested civetone or muscone for pheromonal properties since they have such ancient uses as perfume ingredients.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civetone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscone

I'm sure someone must have...

I have some muscone.
I got it from perfumersapprentice.com
http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/c-70...-musk.aspx
ac-2322-sz1, Muscone (iso) - 50% IPM-4ml, $3.00
powdery musk ; easier to use than the crystalline powder that is pure iso muscone
CAS # 2550-52-9
can use up to 4% of total concentrate

I've mixed it up with ethanol. I've bought so many of their molecules that I can't comment on it without sniffing it again.

They have "ISO E SUPER" cheap too.

If you order from them, get the smallest size, as a small jar of this goes a long way at 1-4% max for putting it on your skin.
There shipping was around $12.50 for a $150 order, be careful, it is easy to get carried away and try to order everything. I ended up ordering 25 scent ingredients and 5 carrier liquids. I only went there for ISO E SUPER.

they also have
Civet CNC / Civet Givco / Firmenich 926851
I don't think this is exactly the same as civetone. They might be a good resource though.
http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-59...enich.aspx

CIVETONE & MUSCONE DESCRIBED NICELY, HISTORICALLY
link to civetone at 3D-CHEM

Civettone as a mixture of 3 isomers, if you look at them in the 3D by clicking on them, you can make out that they are just bent differently. I don't know if these are the same as the shape shown in the other web page, but they might be.
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1003591.html
Quote:(9Z)-cycloheptadec-9-en-1-one , CAS Number : 542-46-1
(9E)-cycloheptadec-9-en-1-one , CAS Number : 1502-37-0
cycloheptadec-9-en-1-one , CAS Number : 74244-64-7


Quote:Synonyms :
civet decenone
(Z)- civetone
cis- civetone
civettone
alpha-(E)- civettone
alpha-trans- civettone
(9Z)- cycloheptadec-9-en-1-one
cycloheptadeca-9-en-1-one
(Z)-9- cycloheptadecen-1-one
cis-9- cycloheptadecen-1-one
9- cycloheptadecen-9-one-1

if you go to http://www.firmenich.com/e-catalog/index.lbl
it says they sell the CAS#542-46-1 version at >88%, and has a product spec sheet. It also says it lasts 2 weeks on a smelling strip, this cat's butt wipings is potent stuff.

Civettone may exhibit different properties based on the isomer. I don't think I trust that the stuff you get is a certain isomer, it is probably all 3, then some. But it is man-made, and not actual cat-butt-scrapings, like real civetone.

dexter
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." -Jesus, Matthew 10:34
AD-Glace, Certo, DHEAS, single mols
AD-a314,P74,5,6,8,9,P80,1,3,P93,5,6,7,P100,​1,2,3,4,9,12,23,25,IFM,
IG,IH,IJ,IO,IS,ISA,ISB,TUTH,TAA,C,F,H,K,​L,NONE,ANOL,AMMO,MX297,391-5UF
LS-LIQTRUST,NOL,NONE,RONE,A1,PERCEPTION,AE,​SOE
P7-ATJ,FTL,DG!,MAP,GG,PURSUIT,SB,TJ
TP-TLOVE,EST,MEO-EST,TJERK,TALPHA,A1,ATRIONE,COPS
HM-ETRIONE
HOMEBREW-D3,DHEA,PEA,ETRIONE,NENO,MEL
(This post was last modified: 06-27-2012 3:36 PM by dexter.)
06-27-2012 3:25 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Thanks given by wiserd
wiserd
Offline
I'm so meta, even this acronym




Joined: Nov 2011
Sex: Male
Posts: 1,390

Reputation: 1390
Rep Post

Thanks Given: 1480
Thanks received:
1324 thanks in 676 posts



Post: #4
RE: Civetone and muscone as putatives?
06-27-2012 8:43 PM

(06-27-2012 3:25 PM)dexter Wrote:  I have some muscone.
I got it from perfumersapprentice.com
http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/c-70...-musk.aspx
ac-2322-sz1, Muscone (iso) - 50% IPM-4ml, $3.00
powdery musk ; easier to use than the crystalline powder that is pure iso muscone
CAS # 2550-52-9
can use up to 4% of total concentrate

I've mixed it up with ethanol. I've bought so many of their molecules that I can't comment on it without sniffing it again.

They have "ISO E SUPER" cheap too.

If you order from them, get the smallest size, as a small jar of this goes a long way at 1-4% max for putting it on your skin.
There shipping was around $12.50 for a $150 order, be careful, it is easy to get carried away and try to order everything. I ended up ordering 25 scent ingredients and 5 carrier liquids. I only went there for ISO E SUPER.

they also have
Civet CNC / Civet Givco / Firmenich 926851
I don't think this is exactly the same as civetone. They might be a good resource though.
http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-59...enich.aspx

CIVETONE & MUSCONE DESCRIBED NICELY, HISTORICALLY
link to civetone at 3D-CHEM

Civettone as a mixture of 3 isomers, if you look at them in the 3D by clicking on them, you can make out that they are just bent differently. I don't know if these are the same as the shape shown in the other web page, but they might be.
http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1003591.html
Quote:(9Z)-cycloheptadec-9-en-1-one , CAS Number : 542-46-1
(9E)-cycloheptadec-9-en-1-one , CAS Number : 1502-37-0
cycloheptadec-9-en-1-one , CAS Number : 74244-64-7


Quote:Synonyms :
civet decenone
(Z)- civetone
cis- civetone
civettone
alpha-(E)- civettone
alpha-trans- civettone
(9Z)- cycloheptadec-9-en-1-one
cycloheptadeca-9-en-1-one
(Z)-9- cycloheptadecen-1-one
cis-9- cycloheptadecen-1-one
9- cycloheptadecen-9-one-1

if you go to http://www.firmenich.com/e-catalog/index.lbl
it says they sell the CAS#542-46-1 version at >88%, and has a product spec sheet. It also says it lasts 2 weeks on a smelling strip, this cat's butt wipings is potent stuff.

Civettone may exhibit different properties based on the isomer. I don't think I trust that the stuff you get is a certain isomer, it is probably all 3, then some. But it is man-made, and not actual cat-butt-scrapings, like real civetone.

Awesome. Have you noticed any pheromonal type effects from it?

[Image: Example.jpg]
06-27-2012 8:43 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
dexter
Offline
SPICE UP THE LTR's




Joined: Jul 2011
Sex: Male
Posts: 490

Reputation: 828
Rep Post

Thanks Given: 150
Thanks received:
557 thanks in 253 posts



Post: #5
RE: Civetone and muscone as putatives?
07-09-2012 11:55 AM

I did go and check the muscone I have
[Muscone (iso) - 50% IPM]
It might have been an off day for my nose, depending on if I'm wearing mones or cologne my sense of smell can vary.

But I didn't get much of a reading opening the vial and smelling the waftings off it. I just couldn't smell anything. I'll have to add some to alcohol and spray it on, see if that makes it more "smellable".

dexter
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." -Jesus, Matthew 10:34
AD-Glace, Certo, DHEAS, single mols
AD-a314,P74,5,6,8,9,P80,1,3,P93,5,6,7,P100,​1,2,3,4,9,12,23,25,IFM,
IG,IH,IJ,IO,IS,ISA,ISB,TUTH,TAA,C,F,H,K,​L,NONE,ANOL,AMMO,MX297,391-5UF
LS-LIQTRUST,NOL,NONE,RONE,A1,PERCEPTION,AE,​SOE
P7-ATJ,FTL,DG!,MAP,GG,PURSUIT,SB,TJ
TP-TLOVE,EST,MEO-EST,TJERK,TALPHA,A1,ATRIONE,COPS
HM-ETRIONE
HOMEBREW-D3,DHEA,PEA,ETRIONE,NENO,MEL
07-09-2012 11:55 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Thanks given by wiserd
Login or register to remove all advertising

dexter
Offline
SPICE UP THE LTR's




Joined: Jul 2011
Sex: Male
Posts: 490

Reputation: 828
Rep Post

Thanks Given: 150
Thanks received:
557 thanks in 253 posts



Post: #6
RE: Civetone and muscone as putatives?
07-09-2012 1:08 PM

I do wonder about the human endocrine/exocrine system and it's analogs to the musk glands on a cat that produce civet.
The perineal glands of the civet cat may be similar to something in humans.

The "PERINEAL DRAG" the technical term for a mammal dragging it's butt across something to deposit perineal gland communication molecules. (or for a dog/cat to ruin your carpet haha)

In humans, the
Bartholin's glands are located in the superficial perineal pouch in females,
bulbourethral glands are located in the deep perineal pouch in males.

Like:
Skene's glands ( Guérin's glands)
Barthonlin's Glands(Tiedmann's glands, vulvovaginal glands)
Duverney's gland
Huguier's glands

Bulbourethral glands ( Cowper's glands, Mery's glands)

Littré's glands ( Morgagni's glands)
Excrete GAG's, [might be a molecule to investigate as well,

L-Iduronic acid (IdoA) is the major uronic acid component of the glycosaminoglycans (GAGs) dermatan sulfate, and heparin.

all lifted of course from this nice wikipedia webpage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocrine_gland

not to mention
scent gland that secrete pheromones which play such a large part in olfactory communication between animals. Located in a variety of places, e.g. in the elephant they are behind the eyes, in the musk deer they are in the belly wall.

Seems that I read an article about communication chemicals in human tears not to long ago. I just don't know where a belly wall is to see if I have some gland there too!

and a SMEGMA link
http://love-scent.com/forum/showthread.p...pheromones
Quote:"Analogous to tears, smegma is the compilation of secretions by ectopic sebaceous glands located in the prepuce, the seminal secretions of the Cowper's gland and the prostate, the mucin content of the secretions of the urethral glands, and the sloughed epithelial cells. It provides the necessary mucosal lubricant and moisturizer and is rich in sexual pheromones. The prepuce normally prevents detection of this phenomenally charged scent until the glans is exposed at the time erection takes place." (Routine Neonatal Circumcision: An Update, by Robert S. Van Howe, MD)

dexter
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." -Jesus, Matthew 10:34
AD-Glace, Certo, DHEAS, single mols
AD-a314,P74,5,6,8,9,P80,1,3,P93,5,6,7,P100,​1,2,3,4,9,12,23,25,IFM,
IG,IH,IJ,IO,IS,ISA,ISB,TUTH,TAA,C,F,H,K,​L,NONE,ANOL,AMMO,MX297,391-5UF
LS-LIQTRUST,NOL,NONE,RONE,A1,PERCEPTION,AE,​SOE
P7-ATJ,FTL,DG!,MAP,GG,PURSUIT,SB,TJ
TP-TLOVE,EST,MEO-EST,TJERK,TALPHA,A1,ATRIONE,COPS
HM-ETRIONE
HOMEBREW-D3,DHEA,PEA,ETRIONE,NENO,MEL
07-09-2012 1:08 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
wiserd
Offline
I'm so meta, even this acronym




Joined: Nov 2011
Sex: Male
Posts: 1,390

Reputation: 1390
Rep Post

Thanks Given: 1480
Thanks received:
1324 thanks in 676 posts



Post: #7
RE: Civetone and muscone as putatives?
07-09-2012 2:33 PM

Hmm... interesting. Especially the part about circumcision... I'd never considered that.

[Image: Example.jpg]
07-09-2012 2:33 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
dexter
Offline
SPICE UP THE LTR's




Joined: Jul 2011
Sex: Male
Posts: 490

Reputation: 828
Rep Post

Thanks Given: 150
Thanks received:
557 thanks in 253 posts



Post: #8
RE: Civetone and muscone as putatives?
07-09-2012 5:02 PM

the Bulbourethral glands ( Cowper's glands, Mery's glands)
in human males are what release pre-sperm.
Apperently it has high pheromone content, but what type of 'mones?

Is it muscone, civitone, castoreum (beaver perineal scent)
could they be the sterols & long-chain fatty acids


http://www.smart-publications.com/articl...attractionclaims that Androsterone is present in smegma.

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/cold-taylor/
squalene, beta-cholestanol, sterols and long-chain fatty acids
and in 35+ year old men 9,10-methyleneoctadecanoic acid

so far, these are the human perineal equivalents chemical contents.
Androsterone
squalene
beta-cholestanol
sterols
long-chain fatty acids
9,10-methyleneoctadecanoic acid

9,10-methyleneoctadecanoic acid is hard to track down, SigmaAldrich discontinued it. (Dihydrosterulic acid , (+/-)-cis-9,10-methyleneoctadecanoic acid, CAS# 60719-76-8;cis-9,10-Methyleneoctadecanoic acid, CAS# 5411-28-4 , sterculic acid (8-(2-Octacyclopropen-1-yl)octanoic acid cas 738-87-4 [Image: 738-87-4.gif]) from seed oil of Sterculia foetida)
http://lipidlibrary.aocs.org/lipids/fa_cycl/index.htm
http://journals.iucr.org/q/issues/1958/0...a02306.pdf

I also saw the thread
http://love-scent.com/forum/showthread.php/3266-Earwax
DrSmellThis also mentioned deer musk having an intoxicating and horny effect
(07-09-2012 2:33 PM)wiserd Wrote:  Hmm... interesting. Especially the part about circumcision... I'd never considered that.

well, i guess I can't cry over spilt milk, as i got no foreskin left.

dexter
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." -Jesus, Matthew 10:34
AD-Glace, Certo, DHEAS, single mols
AD-a314,P74,5,6,8,9,P80,1,3,P93,5,6,7,P100,​1,2,3,4,9,12,23,25,IFM,
IG,IH,IJ,IO,IS,ISA,ISB,TUTH,TAA,C,F,H,K,​L,NONE,ANOL,AMMO,MX297,391-5UF
LS-LIQTRUST,NOL,NONE,RONE,A1,PERCEPTION,AE,​SOE
P7-ATJ,FTL,DG!,MAP,GG,PURSUIT,SB,TJ
TP-TLOVE,EST,MEO-EST,TJERK,TALPHA,A1,ATRIONE,COPS
HM-ETRIONE
HOMEBREW-D3,DHEA,PEA,ETRIONE,NENO,MEL
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2012 5:03 PM by dexter.)
07-09-2012 5:02 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
wiserd
Offline
I'm so meta, even this acronym




Joined: Nov 2011
Sex: Male
Posts: 1,390

Reputation: 1390
Rep Post

Thanks Given: 1480
Thanks received:
1324 thanks in 676 posts



Post: #9
RE: Civetone and muscone as putatives?
07-09-2012 5:37 PM

Hmm... lizards seem to use cholesterol as a pheromone.

Quote:Males showed significant avoidance behaviour for cholesterol and alcohol blends, combined with agonistic behaviour towards these stimuli.
http://www.citeulike.org/article/9226494

But then, it seems worth remembering that initial lab pheromone trials with androstenone used 100mcg samples and didn't seem to realize that smaller doses might have a different effect.

Also interesting Re: deer musk... You said you can't really smell muscone. Can you smell other mones then?

... wow... carbon bonds in a TRIANGLE? With a DOUBLE BOND? How unstable IS that molecule?

Aside from androsterone, I don't see much that looks like a pheromone... I wonder why moths always use the long chain pheromones?

[Image: Example.jpg]
(This post was last modified: 07-10-2012 1:31 AM by wiserd.)
07-09-2012 5:37 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Login or register to remove all advertising

dexter
Offline
SPICE UP THE LTR's




Joined: Jul 2011
Sex: Male
Posts: 490

Reputation: 828
Rep Post

Thanks Given: 150
Thanks received:
557 thanks in 253 posts



Post: #10
RE: Civetone and muscone as putatives?
07-10-2012 2:10 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheromone

A class of aliphatic acids was found in female rhesus monkeys that produced six types in the vaginal fluids. The combination of these acids is referred to as "copulins". One of the acids, acetic acid, was found in all of the sampled female’s vaginal fluid. Even in humans one-third have all six types of copulins, which increase in quantity prior to ovulation. Copulins are used to signal ovulation; however, as human ovulation is concealed it is thought that they may be used for reasons other than sexual communication.

it looks like squalene and some other aliphatic acids (which 6 are in copulins again?).
[Image: 125px-Squalene.svg.png]
squalene

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...svg/200px-
caproic acid

dexter
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." -Jesus, Matthew 10:34
AD-Glace, Certo, DHEAS, single mols
AD-a314,P74,5,6,8,9,P80,1,3,P93,5,6,7,P100,​1,2,3,4,9,12,23,25,IFM,
IG,IH,IJ,IO,IS,ISA,ISB,TUTH,TAA,C,F,H,K,​L,NONE,ANOL,AMMO,MX297,391-5UF
LS-LIQTRUST,NOL,NONE,RONE,A1,PERCEPTION,AE,​SOE
P7-ATJ,FTL,DG!,MAP,GG,PURSUIT,SB,TJ
TP-TLOVE,EST,MEO-EST,TJERK,TALPHA,A1,ATRIONE,COPS
HM-ETRIONE
HOMEBREW-D3,DHEA,PEA,ETRIONE,NENO,MEL
07-10-2012 2:10 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply

Share This Thread
Del.icio.us Digg FURL FaceBook Stumble Upon Reddit SlashDot Ask BlinkBits BlinkList Co.mments Delirious Feed Me Links Google Bookmarks Linkagogo Ma.gnolia MSN Live Netscape Netvouz Newsvine RawSugar Rojo Smarking Socializer Sphinn Spurl Squidoo Tailrank Technorati Yahoo My Web
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


Login or Register to remove all advertising
Love Scent 468x60
Current time: 04-17-2014, 9:00 PM
Contact Us Home Return to Content Lite (Archive) Mode RSS Syndication Forum Disclaimer